Another person with idle woes
09-14-2013, 09:26 PM
#1
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Another person with idle woes
So my 99 with and 04 MSM engine [MS2PNP for 99-00, forged internals, port work, id1000s, 36-1 trigger wheel] will not idle for ****.
I disconnect the IACV it just oscillates. I connect the IACV it oscillates then stalls.
I checked for vacuum leaks I couldn't find any nor could my carb cleaner (but this is never 100% ya know)
The idle valve test in MS doesn't work. Fidle output doesn't work.
So I figure the IACV is bad. I ordered one for $199. **** me right.
We'll see if it fixes it but I highly doubt it will since it just oscillates while it's disconnected, but what do I know.
Any and all help would be great on this.
Here's my build post with info and logs and tune file.
https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...7/#post1053284
I'm probably just retarded and it's something simple but since I've been working 12 hour shifts for 2 weeks now my mind is just not all there for this car.
Thanks for your time in reading my dribble.
I disconnect the IACV it just oscillates. I connect the IACV it oscillates then stalls.
I checked for vacuum leaks I couldn't find any nor could my carb cleaner (but this is never 100% ya know)
The idle valve test in MS doesn't work. Fidle output doesn't work.
So I figure the IACV is bad. I ordered one for $199. **** me right.
We'll see if it fixes it but I highly doubt it will since it just oscillates while it's disconnected, but what do I know.
Any and all help would be great on this.
Here's my build post with info and logs and tune file.
https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...7/#post1053284
I'm probably just retarded and it's something simple but since I've been working 12 hour shifts for 2 weeks now my mind is just not all there for this car.
Thanks for your time in reading my dribble.
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09-15-2013, 11:41 AM
#2
I feel your pain. I just fought my bone stock 2003 for about 6 weeks to finally get it to idle properly on my Rev MS2, in preparation for the turbo. Also dealing with a 1974 280z big turbo car on a DIY built MS2 that has been fighting me a bit as well. Getting a proper, consistent idle with MS has always been a challenge, but it is doable. I'll take a look at your other thread and see if I can tweak your MSQ and get you started. Just an FYI, I have a shop with a dyno over in Orlando if you need someone to tune this beast once it's up and running.
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09-15-2013, 12:14 PM
#3
why would you buy a new idle valve? you can just take the old one off and see if it works. Its literally just a solenoid.
My idle also oscillates but a little bit. Oscillating is usually caused by something changing - timing, fuel, whatever. So make sure all those are fixed - set the fuel cells to the exact same VE, set timing to the exact same value, disconnect IAC connector and see if it stabilizes.
My idle also oscillates but a little bit. Oscillating is usually caused by something changing - timing, fuel, whatever. So make sure all those are fixed - set the fuel cells to the exact same VE, set timing to the exact same value, disconnect IAC connector and see if it stabilizes.
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09-15-2013, 12:49 PM
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Thanks Strato, I may have to hit you up about that dyno tune. Are you the actual one that does the tuning?
There's one thing bothering me, my AFR signal into my MS is now oscillating, with car off. you can see it in the data logs. I'm thinking it may have a connection to the oscillating idle, but my AFR gauge doesn't oscillate.
I'm also thinking of upgrading the firmware from 3.2.1.
I never thought about that. as said before I'm stupid hah.
I'll test that out today, timing was put to 10 fixed last night I'll try the fuel as well.
Then I'll just remove the valve to check it like you said. I can always return the part. it's factory direct so I wanted to get the shipping started early.
I'm also going to check my EGR block off plate, I think I forgot about that when I was checking fir vacuum leaks.
Also may be relevant information, the car doesn't want to rev, when I rev up too 1500-2000 with the throttle it's like launch control, turbo is spooling, blow off, popping and stuff. Ya know things all the kids like.
I have a crappy cell phone video of it if you other peeps want to watch its stupidity.
There's one thing bothering me, my AFR signal into my MS is now oscillating, with car off. you can see it in the data logs. I'm thinking it may have a connection to the oscillating idle, but my AFR gauge doesn't oscillate.
I'm also thinking of upgrading the firmware from 3.2.1.
why would you buy a new idle valve? you can just take the old one off and see if it works. Its literally just a solenoid.
My idle also oscillates but a little bit. Oscillating is usually caused by something changing - timing, fuel, whatever. So make sure all those are fixed - set the fuel cells to the exact same VE, set timing to the exact same value, disconnect IAC connector and see if it stabilizes.
My idle also oscillates but a little bit. Oscillating is usually caused by something changing - timing, fuel, whatever. So make sure all those are fixed - set the fuel cells to the exact same VE, set timing to the exact same value, disconnect IAC connector and see if it stabilizes.
I'll test that out today, timing was put to 10 fixed last night I'll try the fuel as well.
Then I'll just remove the valve to check it like you said. I can always return the part. it's factory direct so I wanted to get the shipping started early.
I'm also going to check my EGR block off plate, I think I forgot about that when I was checking fir vacuum leaks.
Also may be relevant information, the car doesn't want to rev, when I rev up too 1500-2000 with the throttle it's like launch control, turbo is spooling, blow off, popping and stuff. Ya know things all the kids like.
I have a crappy cell phone video of it if you other peeps want to watch its stupidity.
Last edited by Impuls; 09-15-2013 at 09:23 PM.
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09-15-2013, 01:51 PM
#5
Yeah I do all of the stand-alone tuning at the shop. My partner does all of our OEM Flash tuning email stuff. I've been doing Megasquirts for a while, since MS1, but mostly on Rotaries. If you really hate yourself try getting a freshly rebuilt rotary engine started and idling on a fresh Megasquirt install.... FML!
I took a look at your logs and MSQ, there wasn't anything that readily jumped out at me, but I made a couple tweaks, and have a few suggestions.
You're at the point right now where you need to start removing variables from the equation in order to determine where your problem lies. It's either hardware or software, and you can't fix hardware with software. Meaning you can't fix a mechanical problem with tuning.
That being said, your car will idle without the IAC. So, remove it, build a block off plate. Because simply disconnecting it only keeps the valve from cycling, you have no way to know where the valve is relative to the seat, so you essentially will have a fixed vacuum leak that you can't adjust. So, block it off and open the throttle set screw until it's around 900 rpm when warmed up, or as close as you can get it. Be sure to re-cal your TPS sensor after adjusting the set screw. Now we've removed the IAC as a possibility.
I made some adjustments in your tune that should have the timing fixed at idle at 18 degrees above 150 degrees, this should be a good value for a stable idle. Everything off idle will follow the values in Ignition 1 table. Now we've removed ignition timing as being a source of oscillation.
I also set your VE values in the idle range to 40, this will likely be too rich, but again, by making the values the same we can reduce the chance of them being a source of oscillation. Once the oscillation is gone these values can be properly tuned, if the AFR's are too rich to keep the car running, then you can reduce them, but reduce them all equally.
As for your wideband, I've never personally used the Prosport unit, so I can't speak for its accuracy or reliability. My preferred "budget" wideband is the AEM UEGO. I prefer the AEM over the Innovate LC-1 for ease of install as well as Innovate's know issues with ground offsets and my own experience of poor reliability. But, if you prefer the Prosport gauge, for now, disconnect the input into the MS. No one says you have to have wideband input into MS, and in fact, I always disable EGO correction at idle at least until it's dialed in. Your tune was already set-up for that, but I made a couple more corrections to the EGO control scheme. You'll still use your Prosport for tuning, you'll just need to watch the gauge and make corrections, no big deal for idle.
So, now that I've given you some homework... try this stuff out and let's see how it does. If it's still oscillating wildly then you'll need to start looking at hardware issues. I noticed in your build thread that you were having some Cam/Crank Sync issues, if you haven't sorted those out and these suggestions don't help, I would take a second look at this issue.
Ken
I took a look at your logs and MSQ, there wasn't anything that readily jumped out at me, but I made a couple tweaks, and have a few suggestions.
You're at the point right now where you need to start removing variables from the equation in order to determine where your problem lies. It's either hardware or software, and you can't fix hardware with software. Meaning you can't fix a mechanical problem with tuning.
That being said, your car will idle without the IAC. So, remove it, build a block off plate. Because simply disconnecting it only keeps the valve from cycling, you have no way to know where the valve is relative to the seat, so you essentially will have a fixed vacuum leak that you can't adjust. So, block it off and open the throttle set screw until it's around 900 rpm when warmed up, or as close as you can get it. Be sure to re-cal your TPS sensor after adjusting the set screw. Now we've removed the IAC as a possibility.
I made some adjustments in your tune that should have the timing fixed at idle at 18 degrees above 150 degrees, this should be a good value for a stable idle. Everything off idle will follow the values in Ignition 1 table. Now we've removed ignition timing as being a source of oscillation.
I also set your VE values in the idle range to 40, this will likely be too rich, but again, by making the values the same we can reduce the chance of them being a source of oscillation. Once the oscillation is gone these values can be properly tuned, if the AFR's are too rich to keep the car running, then you can reduce them, but reduce them all equally.
As for your wideband, I've never personally used the Prosport unit, so I can't speak for its accuracy or reliability. My preferred "budget" wideband is the AEM UEGO. I prefer the AEM over the Innovate LC-1 for ease of install as well as Innovate's know issues with ground offsets and my own experience of poor reliability. But, if you prefer the Prosport gauge, for now, disconnect the input into the MS. No one says you have to have wideband input into MS, and in fact, I always disable EGO correction at idle at least until it's dialed in. Your tune was already set-up for that, but I made a couple more corrections to the EGO control scheme. You'll still use your Prosport for tuning, you'll just need to watch the gauge and make corrections, no big deal for idle.
So, now that I've given you some homework... try this stuff out and let's see how it does. If it's still oscillating wildly then you'll need to start looking at hardware issues. I noticed in your build thread that you were having some Cam/Crank Sync issues, if you haven't sorted those out and these suggestions don't help, I would take a second look at this issue.
Ken
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09-15-2013, 09:30 PM
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Yeah I'd like/love to be able to use VE live for street tuning.
So I took off my TB today and took off the IACv. I hooked up some power to it and it comes on. It blocks most but not all air when off (very little bit of air gets past).
I couldn't test the plug for 12v since one of my multi meters probes ends broke in the past.
I'll get some wire to shove in the plug to get a test though.
I was however able to plug and unplug the IACv without any change in idle besides the oscillation.
I'll test the fixed timing and fuel tomorrow too.
Tonight was a late night fellas.
So I took off my TB today and took off the IACv. I hooked up some power to it and it comes on. It blocks most but not all air when off (very little bit of air gets past).
I couldn't test the plug for 12v since one of my multi meters probes ends broke in the past.
I'll get some wire to shove in the plug to get a test though.
I was however able to plug and unplug the IACv without any change in idle besides the oscillation.
I'll test the fixed timing and fuel tomorrow too.
Tonight was a late night fellas.
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09-17-2013, 10:03 PM
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Alright so, I still have an idle problem.
I have everything fixed. Fuel, Timing, and air should all be constant rate. Yet I still get oscillation.
Attached is the log of the idle while I was spraying carb cleaner for the 5th time all over the place trying to find an vacuum leak. Though I have good idle vac.
Also the tune file so you can see the fixed settings and what not.
I don't understand that with ID1000's at 46 on the fuel map I'm lean?
I also can't stand this oscillating AFR input my MS is receiving.
If anyone has noticed when the car is on my BattV is reading at 11.6v usually. Battery light is on in the car. I believe my alternator isn't working, seems weird to me since I've only owned the car 1.5-1.75years and I replaced it a few months after I got it. I guess things happen when a car sits for 7-8months though.
What do yall think? Alternator the culprit maybe?
I have everything fixed. Fuel, Timing, and air should all be constant rate. Yet I still get oscillation.
Attached is the log of the idle while I was spraying carb cleaner for the 5th time all over the place trying to find an vacuum leak. Though I have good idle vac.
Also the tune file so you can see the fixed settings and what not.
I don't understand that with ID1000's at 46 on the fuel map I'm lean?
I also can't stand this oscillating AFR input my MS is receiving.
If anyone has noticed when the car is on my BattV is reading at 11.6v usually. Battery light is on in the car. I believe my alternator isn't working, seems weird to me since I've only owned the car 1.5-1.75years and I replaced it a few months after I got it. I guess things happen when a car sits for 7-8months though.
What do yall think? Alternator the culprit maybe?
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09-17-2013, 10:21 PM
#8
Not near my laptop right now, but I'll look at the logs when I am. But low battery voltage will definitely effect the idle. There are several settings in MS that are based on battery voltage. You need to be seeing a minimum of 12.5 volts when running, but ideally it should be between 13 and 14. Put a battery charger on it for now or hook it up to another car with jumper cables to test, before you go buying an alternator.
Did you disconnect the wideband input into MS? Do it as a test, again removing variables from the equation. Once you get the idle right you can work on getting the wideband input fixed. Right now it's just compounding the problem.
Did you disconnect the wideband input into MS? Do it as a test, again removing variables from the equation. Once you get the idle right you can work on getting the wideband input fixed. Right now it's just compounding the problem.
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09-17-2013, 11:50 PM
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I switched EGO off anything else that would try to correct fuel. I left the wideband input in so the datalog show the AFRs.
I'll do a test with jumper cables I suppose. it has me thinking, I just got my MS back from DIYAutotune because of a burnt component ( some adjustable thing that the o2 signal goes too. I'm wondering if there's possible damage to the
1) voltage regulator as from my understanding 99+ have them inside ecu
2) the oscillating afr signal means the dashpot(?) for o2 input needs adjusted.
DIYAutotune tested the ecu before they sent it back though.
I'm pulling my gauge cluster soon as well seeing as I have the infamous dead Nb tach, and one if my LED blubs(for the tach) is out .
All these electrical problems because someone attracted a battery charger to my car and set it to the 200A starting setting and left it there. :/
I'll do a test with jumper cables I suppose. it has me thinking, I just got my MS back from DIYAutotune because of a burnt component ( some adjustable thing that the o2 signal goes too. I'm wondering if there's possible damage to the
1) voltage regulator as from my understanding 99+ have them inside ecu
2) the oscillating afr signal means the dashpot(?) for o2 input needs adjusted.
DIYAutotune tested the ecu before they sent it back though.
I'm pulling my gauge cluster soon as well seeing as I have the infamous dead Nb tach, and one if my LED blubs(for the tach) is out .
All these electrical problems because someone attracted a battery charger to my car and set it to the 200A starting setting and left it there. :/
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09-19-2013, 01:47 PM
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Took off the alternator to get it tested. Tested good, they pulled the new alternator off the shelf, it tested bad.
Maybe I should replace the battery? it is an 09 battery.
Battv before start 12.3v
Battv while running 11.6v
Battv after dies 12.2-12.3v
Even though I fixed the vacuum leaks still no go.
With IAC disconnected or connected ( going to run putting my new on on see if it responds to anything)
IACv plug gets 12v. The IAC never seems to cone on though.
Start up>1200-1300rpm>then settles down to 700-900rpm> starts to progressively oscillate> dies.
Took out my gauge cluster, couldn't see any evidence to why my tach and 1ea gauge light inop. Going to try bench testing or just buy one for 50$
I'm really hoping my writing harness isn't messed up I want the car back on the road before October 12 for FL2K13.
Anyone have any input?
Maybe I should replace the battery? it is an 09 battery.
Battv before start 12.3v
Battv while running 11.6v
Battv after dies 12.2-12.3v
Even though I fixed the vacuum leaks still no go.
With IAC disconnected or connected ( going to run putting my new on on see if it responds to anything)
IACv plug gets 12v. The IAC never seems to cone on though.
Start up>1200-1300rpm>then settles down to 700-900rpm> starts to progressively oscillate> dies.
Took out my gauge cluster, couldn't see any evidence to why my tach and 1ea gauge light inop. Going to try bench testing or just buy one for 50$
I'm really hoping my writing harness isn't messed up I want the car back on the road before October 12 for FL2K13.
Anyone have any input?
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09-20-2013, 04:39 PM
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Indubitably, especially after my test.
I have an WestCo battery coming my way to replace my, 7-8 times cranked to death, 09/09 dated battery.
This gets weird.
My fuel cells are locked at 67. AFR's on my gauge reading about 15-14. On the datalog is just plan crazy oscilation (output from my AFR gauge controller reads perfectly stable) so I'm guessing something is still not right in my MS2pnp. I may just need to get an Enhanced MS3 like I wanted to.
So anyway
Hooked my miata battery to my trucks alt while running, car started/idled seemingly fine still, needs that initial TP to keep it alive though.
Enabled the IACv, no change in idle. The valve is brand new. It's getting it's 12v.
What kind of demon sorcery is this?
I have an WestCo battery coming my way to replace my, 7-8 times cranked to death, 09/09 dated battery.
This gets weird.
My fuel cells are locked at 67. AFR's on my gauge reading about 15-14. On the datalog is just plan crazy oscilation (output from my AFR gauge controller reads perfectly stable) so I'm guessing something is still not right in my MS2pnp. I may just need to get an Enhanced MS3 like I wanted to.
So anyway
Hooked my miata battery to my trucks alt while running, car started/idled seemingly fine still, needs that initial TP to keep it alive though.
Enabled the IACv, no change in idle. The valve is brand new. It's getting it's 12v.
What kind of demon sorcery is this?
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09-20-2013, 07:05 PM
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I wish yalls installs/start up/tunes a lot smoother then mine.
Just tested pulling the battery termials, car died.
Going to try to see if I can pick up an alternator. I know their are threads but what are some better direct replacements?
Just tested pulling the battery termials, car died.
Going to try to see if I can pick up an alternator. I know their are threads but what are some better direct replacements?
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09-21-2013, 11:58 AM
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New alternator = no fix
Still **** idle/run with BattV dropping to 10.9v at one point.
I sent an email to DIYAutotune as my ECU is still under warranty.
I looked deeper into this problem and compared past (before sending the ECU off to be repaired) and current/right after I got the ECU back and the problem with battV/charging came about then.
I'm currently very wearisome with dealing with this issue. I hope some sort of fix comes about with DIYautotune. Maybe a new ECU unit? maybe an upgrade (doubt this)? or maybe a refund so I can just put in to acquire the awesome of enhanced MS3.
Time will tell.
Still **** idle/run with BattV dropping to 10.9v at one point.
I sent an email to DIYAutotune as my ECU is still under warranty.
I looked deeper into this problem and compared past (before sending the ECU off to be repaired) and current/right after I got the ECU back and the problem with battV/charging came about then.
I'm currently very wearisome with dealing with this issue. I hope some sort of fix comes about with DIYautotune. Maybe a new ECU unit? maybe an upgrade (doubt this)? or maybe a refund so I can just put in to acquire the awesome of enhanced MS3.
Time will tell.
Last edited by Impuls; 09-21-2013 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Added log/email topic.
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