Base Timing Issues
05-30-2013, 01:22 PM
#21
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Well I got the FULL version including megalog and the car runs pretty good now. I been playing with trying to get the AC set up now. I got it to the point where it wont die when I rev it up and has about a 1200 rpm idle when ac is off but if I turn on the AC at a standstill it just about dies before it saves it self and is good to go. Im not sure if it gets any better or if thats the best i can do as far as AC integration into MS1.
EDIT: I forgot to mention I am going to try Joe Perez' FAQ in the sticky when I get a chance.
EDIT: I forgot to mention I am going to try Joe Perez' FAQ in the sticky when I get a chance.
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05-30-2013, 02:01 PM
#22
AC with MS1 is a challenge.
I've setup two spark maps (only difference being in the idle area) and wired an air leak with my purge valve to help. It's pretty good, but still not the same as stock.
I'm considering delving into the code to change minimum idle DC when the AC compressor is engaged (since the input is already there for the spark map switching). But I'm weak with assembly.
I've setup two spark maps (only difference being in the idle area) and wired an air leak with my purge valve to help. It's pretty good, but still not the same as stock.
I'm considering delving into the code to change minimum idle DC when the AC compressor is engaged (since the input is already there for the spark map switching). But I'm weak with assembly.
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05-30-2013, 07:51 PM
#23
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A little Update. Well I been playing with the Closed Loop Idle settings and I have managed to get the car to idle with AC ON at 970ishrpm and then with AC OFF at around 1200-1100rpm. When i turn on the AC the car drops to around 300-400 rpm then rises and settles. So far the car has not died when revving with the AC ON. My next task to is deal with the variable idle speed with the AC OFF. I am thinking if I leave the idle settings alone and adjusting the spark map. I figure once tackle the variable idle speed with AC OFF I will do another Autotune. I am not sure if its necessary but something in my gut says to do so.
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07-18-2013, 09:03 PM
#25
after reading this thread a couple of times, especially this...
"1. Setup idle VE first. I would recommend shooting for maximum vacuum in setting up idle VE because it is a good, non-noisy signal at idle conditions. It ends up being ~stoichiometric, but it is easier to set than using AFR. Use the following steps:
a. Change Idle Control Algorithm to "PWM" and "Warmup Only." Set your minimum duty cycle to 19 and your "Idle Duty at Upper Temp (DC)" to 19. What we are doing here is eliminating variables and putting the idle air control valve under your direct control.
b. Start the car and let it warm up. You should notice that once the "Slow Idle (Upper) Temp (F)" is reached, your idle duty cycle should be fixed at 19.
c. Now, adjust your idle screw to give you an RPM that will keep the car alive while we mess with idle area VE. 1000RPM should work fine.
d. Were going to find the best VE for your idle, knowing that all other variables are fixed. Go to your "Fuel VE Table 1" and note your current operating kPa and RPM. We're going to change all of the VE cells surrounding this point so that we get a constant VE without interpolation. We're shooting for maximum vacuum (lowest kPa). In my case, I ended up at a VE of 40. It was a very distinct peak.
e. Once you've found your idle VE, set all of the cells in the idle region to this VE to provide stability for your engine. That would be all cells up to about 35kPa and 1500RPM. Your idle VE should be the minimum VE in your map.
2. Now setup idle timing. Just use something between 10-15 and be done with it. If you want to use spark table switching to stabilize your AC-on idle, then use a lower setting, otherwise just set 15. As with VE, make sure all of your idle cells have the same timing to provide stability to the engine. In addition, adjust the timing in your lowest RPM column to idle timing all the way up to 100kPa to provide constant timing post-start in the area where the engine catches and creates vacuum.
3. With VE and idle timing set, and while still in "Warmup Only" mode, adjust your idle air screw for your target warm idle speed. I adjusted for 900 RPM. The basic idea here is that we are setting the minimum air bleed (consisting of minimum DC + idle air screw). We want the closed loop idle control to be able to add air for loads such as lights, AC, higher outside air temperatures, etc. But we should not be relying on closed loop idle to provide our minimum idle air setting. Note that your idle air screw should be at least a full turn open to avoid large % orifice size changes with metal cooling and heating. If this results in too high of an RPM, then reduce idle timing. You can see how these things are interrelated.
4. With all of the above done, you can now return to "PWM" and "Closed Loop Only" and mess around with closed loop settings to provide recovery from loads. Note that if you don't have big loads like AC, plenty of people are content to just use "Warmup Only." It is simple and stable."
I thought Hornetball was going to be my HERO, until....
started my car [94, NB1 block--crank sensor/wheel, NB2 head--VVT, MS-PNP]
opened PWM 2-wire idle control dialog box
set PWM and warmup only
oophs... available settings don't match Hornetball's writeup
open loop / closed loop
idle frequency [hz^-?] 19 / 19
cranking [dc] 12 / 12
minimum [dc] -- / 9
closed [dc] -- / 9
Warmup Settings
idle duty at lower temp 12 / --
idle duty at upper temp 9 / --
Idle Speed Target
fast idle, lower temp [*F] 180 / 180
slow idle, upper temp [*F] 120 / 120
fast idle [rpm] -- / 1400
slow idle [rpm -- / 900
Dash Pot Settings
TPS threshold [ADC] -- / 32
idle activation [rpm] -- / 300
dash pot settle, rpm [.01 sec] -- / 44
dash pot adder [dc] -- / 1
so the above is what I worked out to achieve a fairly stable STATIC idle
and I can even drive it without if stalling at every stop
now to get the VE down and the AFRs up
any suggestions on the above, or other comments?
"1. Setup idle VE first. I would recommend shooting for maximum vacuum in setting up idle VE because it is a good, non-noisy signal at idle conditions. It ends up being ~stoichiometric, but it is easier to set than using AFR. Use the following steps:
a. Change Idle Control Algorithm to "PWM" and "Warmup Only." Set your minimum duty cycle to 19 and your "Idle Duty at Upper Temp (DC)" to 19. What we are doing here is eliminating variables and putting the idle air control valve under your direct control.
b. Start the car and let it warm up. You should notice that once the "Slow Idle (Upper) Temp (F)" is reached, your idle duty cycle should be fixed at 19.
c. Now, adjust your idle screw to give you an RPM that will keep the car alive while we mess with idle area VE. 1000RPM should work fine.
d. Were going to find the best VE for your idle, knowing that all other variables are fixed. Go to your "Fuel VE Table 1" and note your current operating kPa and RPM. We're going to change all of the VE cells surrounding this point so that we get a constant VE without interpolation. We're shooting for maximum vacuum (lowest kPa). In my case, I ended up at a VE of 40. It was a very distinct peak.
e. Once you've found your idle VE, set all of the cells in the idle region to this VE to provide stability for your engine. That would be all cells up to about 35kPa and 1500RPM. Your idle VE should be the minimum VE in your map.
2. Now setup idle timing. Just use something between 10-15 and be done with it. If you want to use spark table switching to stabilize your AC-on idle, then use a lower setting, otherwise just set 15. As with VE, make sure all of your idle cells have the same timing to provide stability to the engine. In addition, adjust the timing in your lowest RPM column to idle timing all the way up to 100kPa to provide constant timing post-start in the area where the engine catches and creates vacuum.
3. With VE and idle timing set, and while still in "Warmup Only" mode, adjust your idle air screw for your target warm idle speed. I adjusted for 900 RPM. The basic idea here is that we are setting the minimum air bleed (consisting of minimum DC + idle air screw). We want the closed loop idle control to be able to add air for loads such as lights, AC, higher outside air temperatures, etc. But we should not be relying on closed loop idle to provide our minimum idle air setting. Note that your idle air screw should be at least a full turn open to avoid large % orifice size changes with metal cooling and heating. If this results in too high of an RPM, then reduce idle timing. You can see how these things are interrelated.
4. With all of the above done, you can now return to "PWM" and "Closed Loop Only" and mess around with closed loop settings to provide recovery from loads. Note that if you don't have big loads like AC, plenty of people are content to just use "Warmup Only." It is simple and stable."
I thought Hornetball was going to be my HERO, until....
started my car [94, NB1 block--crank sensor/wheel, NB2 head--VVT, MS-PNP]
opened PWM 2-wire idle control dialog box
set PWM and warmup only
oophs... available settings don't match Hornetball's writeup
open loop / closed loop
idle frequency [hz^-?] 19 / 19
cranking [dc] 12 / 12
minimum [dc] -- / 9
closed [dc] -- / 9
Warmup Settings
idle duty at lower temp 12 / --
idle duty at upper temp 9 / --
Idle Speed Target
fast idle, lower temp [*F] 180 / 180
slow idle, upper temp [*F] 120 / 120
fast idle [rpm] -- / 1400
slow idle [rpm -- / 900
Dash Pot Settings
TPS threshold [ADC] -- / 32
idle activation [rpm] -- / 300
dash pot settle, rpm [.01 sec] -- / 44
dash pot adder [dc] -- / 1
so the above is what I worked out to achieve a fairly stable STATIC idle
and I can even drive it without if stalling at every stop
now to get the VE down and the AFRs up
any suggestions on the above, or other comments?
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07-18-2013, 11:38 PM
#26
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After I paid for TS and Installed a wideband it was easy as pie to set up my MSPNP. The only thing I had issues with was utilizing my AC however hornetball has a write up out now that adds "idle up" to MS1. Unfortunately I sent my MSPNP to DIY to be upgraded to MS2.(still waiting to get after a month of being there) so I havent gotten a chance to try hornetball's write up but its something you may want to look into if your having AC issues. Idle wasnt an issue for me after I ran autotune though.
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07-19-2013, 11:36 AM
#27
That write-up was done on a 1st generation MSPNP (MS1-based) using MegaTune.
Not sure how applicable the write-up is to MS2/MS3 based systems -- although the fundamental principle of setting up your base, no-load idle as a mechanical, minimum air leak function and using closed loop only to boost your air leak when you have loads is universal.
TunerStudio uses slightly different nomenclature than the old MegaTune. "Warmup Mode" would be analogous to "Open Loop" (and, for the record, "Open Loop" is a much better term).
Not sure how applicable the write-up is to MS2/MS3 based systems -- although the fundamental principle of setting up your base, no-load idle as a mechanical, minimum air leak function and using closed loop only to boost your air leak when you have loads is universal.
TunerStudio uses slightly different nomenclature than the old MegaTune. "Warmup Mode" would be analogous to "Open Loop" (and, for the record, "Open Loop" is a much better term).
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07-19-2013, 04:26 PM
#28
That write-up was done on a 1st generation MSPNP (MS1-based) using MegaTune.
Not sure how applicable the write-up is to MS2/MS3 based systems -- although the fundamental principle of setting up your base, no-load idle as a mechanical, minimum air leak function and using closed loop only to boost your air leak when you have loads is universal.
TunerStudio uses slightly different nomenclature than the old MegaTune. "Warmup Mode" would be analogous to "Open Loop" (and, for the record, "Open Loop" is a much better term).
Not sure how applicable the write-up is to MS2/MS3 based systems -- although the fundamental principle of setting up your base, no-load idle as a mechanical, minimum air leak function and using closed loop only to boost your air leak when you have loads is universal.
TunerStudio uses slightly different nomenclature than the old MegaTune. "Warmup Mode" would be analogous to "Open Loop" (and, for the record, "Open Loop" is a much better term).
and TunerStudio
guess I could reinstall MegaTune until I get a more stable idle
then switch back to TunerStudio
would that make the write up match?
[do you know how hard it is to ask an airdale for help-lol]
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07-19-2013, 09:36 PM
#30
the P-cola to Key Field gave you away
=======================
beginning to think I have an intermittment air leak under vacuum conditions somewhere around the intake manifold
for a while I had my 4 LS2 coils mounted on a bracket affixed to the fender-side of the intake manifold [it is a square top], any way, the vibrations cracked three brackets so we remounted the coils out on the fender well above the shock
maybe I need to rethink bracing the intake manifold, like the OEM manifold was braced
another indication, I think, is I can completely close the idle air adjustment screw, and have an air gap for the butterfly adjustment screw, and the engine still runs,
=======================
beginning to think I have an intermittment air leak under vacuum conditions somewhere around the intake manifold
for a while I had my 4 LS2 coils mounted on a bracket affixed to the fender-side of the intake manifold [it is a square top], any way, the vibrations cracked three brackets so we remounted the coils out on the fender well above the shock
maybe I need to rethink bracing the intake manifold, like the OEM manifold was braced
another indication, I think, is I can completely close the idle air adjustment screw, and have an air gap for the butterfly adjustment screw, and the engine still runs,
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07-19-2013, 11:32 PM
#31
A healthy engine with a well tuned idle will pull 20"Hg at 900RPM.
There are a lot of potential vacuum leaks. Fuel injector seals. The nipple by the firewall (does the square top have this?).
Haven't heard of people having vacuum issues running without the brace (although some think it is a contributor to breaking throttle shafts because of those vibrations you mentioned). I'd check the obvious stuff before messing with the IM mounting.
There are a lot of potential vacuum leaks. Fuel injector seals. The nipple by the firewall (does the square top have this?).
Haven't heard of people having vacuum issues running without the brace (although some think it is a contributor to breaking throttle shafts because of those vibrations you mentioned). I'd check the obvious stuff before messing with the IM mounting.
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