closed loop boost control
#1
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closed loop boost control
For those who are running EBC, are you running closed or open loop?
I dabbled in the closed loop stuff earlier today, and it seems that it will work with a little tuning. The way it looks like it works, is you help get it there by inputting data in the duty cycle table, then give it boost targets in kpa. If the difference between the duty cycle table and target table is too large, it gives up trying closed loop and reverts to open loop.
I set all my closed loop targets to 149kpa to see if the system would work. My peak boost as derived from the duty cycle table is closer to 200kpa, so if the closed loop system would be forced to pull a lot of EBC duty cycle. That way it would be obvious to me if it worked or not.
Here is a result:
Top Graph, RPM in green, TPS in white, MAP in purple
Bottom Graph, Boost in red, and EBC duty cycle in Green
Again the boost target I gave it was 149kpa, and you can see how the MS controlled the EBC dutycyle to hit the target. This was a partial throttle pull. I don't have a WOT pull to show with the same results, as the discrepency between the duty cycle table and boost target table was so large (50kpa or 7psi), the MS gave up trying to run closed loop at WOT and reverted to open loop.
So with a little tuning, it seems that it should work. I'm hopeful that it will because that way boost control becomes stable with temperature. And boost targets will be automatically lowered with high intake temp, and with knock events.
Comments?
B
I dabbled in the closed loop stuff earlier today, and it seems that it will work with a little tuning. The way it looks like it works, is you help get it there by inputting data in the duty cycle table, then give it boost targets in kpa. If the difference between the duty cycle table and target table is too large, it gives up trying closed loop and reverts to open loop.
I set all my closed loop targets to 149kpa to see if the system would work. My peak boost as derived from the duty cycle table is closer to 200kpa, so if the closed loop system would be forced to pull a lot of EBC duty cycle. That way it would be obvious to me if it worked or not.
Here is a result:
Top Graph, RPM in green, TPS in white, MAP in purple
Bottom Graph, Boost in red, and EBC duty cycle in Green
Again the boost target I gave it was 149kpa, and you can see how the MS controlled the EBC dutycyle to hit the target. This was a partial throttle pull. I don't have a WOT pull to show with the same results, as the discrepency between the duty cycle table and boost target table was so large (50kpa or 7psi), the MS gave up trying to run closed loop at WOT and reverted to open loop.
So with a little tuning, it seems that it should work. I'm hopeful that it will because that way boost control becomes stable with temperature. And boost targets will be automatically lowered with high intake temp, and with knock events.
Comments?
B
#2
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I know my EBC works great in open loop with just duty cycle targets with little % change through the revs.
I never tried closed loop, but wanted to dabble with a toggle switch so I can run dual maps.
just gotta having a running car to do it
I never tried closed loop, but wanted to dabble with a toggle switch so I can run dual maps.
just gotta having a running car to do it
#3
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No comments. Heh I must be the only one running boost control then, huh?
I'm going to play with this some more today, if it doesn't rain. The sky is dark right now though :/
I'm going to play with this some more today, if it doesn't rain. The sky is dark right now though :/
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Dick.
I took 2 semesters each AP stat and calc in highschool. Got As and Bs in all. Took both AP tests, scored 4 (out of 5) on both tests. In the end, the only math class it exempted me from was College Algebra. But I took it anyway. Easy A. Made dean's list freshman year. And then the first semester sophmore year. And then I started partying.
I have no clue what algorithyms the MS uses to determine BCDC. I tried to play with it this morning, but it's raining very lightly, so the street is super slick. Went sideways twice, break out was anything but progressive and predictible. Second time put me oncoming with an SUV. So I put it away.
B
I took 2 semesters each AP stat and calc in highschool. Got As and Bs in all. Took both AP tests, scored 4 (out of 5) on both tests. In the end, the only math class it exempted me from was College Algebra. But I took it anyway. Easy A. Made dean's list freshman year. And then the first semester sophmore year. And then I started partying.
I have no clue what algorithyms the MS uses to determine BCDC. I tried to play with it this morning, but it's raining very lightly, so the street is super slick. Went sideways twice, break out was anything but progressive and predictible. Second time put me oncoming with an SUV. So I put it away.
B
#9
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http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=80599
it does have P and D it looks like.
Heres some nerding up for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
Proportional: a rubber band between boost setpoint and actual boost.
Derivative: a shock absorber on that rubber band
Integral: the longer you're not at the setpoint, the harder it tries to get there.
it does have P and D it looks like.
Heres some nerding up for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller
Proportional: a rubber band between boost setpoint and actual boost.
Derivative: a shock absorber on that rubber band
Integral: the longer you're not at the setpoint, the harder it tries to get there.
#10
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Oh PID. Yeah I understand PID control. Sorry brain fart, I saw all those big math words and didn't make the connection.
No, I don't think it does I. In fact, I think it has a function that is the opposite of I, where basically if it is too far out of bound, it simply gives up and reverts back to open loop.
No, I don't think it does I. In fact, I think it has a function that is the opposite of I, where basically if it is too far out of bound, it simply gives up and reverts back to open loop.
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For those getting into boost control w/ the GM solenoid: I was at Advanced Auto Parts a little while ago. I was looking through their generic plugs and connectors looking for a COP harness. Didn't see anything for the COPs, but I did see what looked like the GM pigtails for the boost solenoid for $6. Nice little rubber crush boot and all.
B
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Last edited by Ben; 07-28-2007 at 01:17 PM.
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It does do PID, including the 'I' I believe, but it has a programmable threshold you can set so that if it gets too far away from the desired boost pressure it can 'abort mission' and failback to to open loop DC table.
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#15
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so im not sure I understand the advantage of this closed loop boost control. Does the open loop use a static duty cycle which may mean varying levels of boost on different days or somthing? And the closed loop thingie is there to add a bit more intelligence to the boost control or what?
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pretty much the only difference.
One is preset DC values, the other takes readings directly from the MAP sensors and makes on the fly adjustments.
But closed loop also allows for dual tables, so a toggle switch can allow you to switch between high and low kPa targets. open loop mode doesnt seem to have dual tables.
I only ran open loop, as I only had the EBC working for a few days before I melted my pistons. I misunderstood closed loop and figured I needed to run fueling in closed loop as well, which you don't. So if it works as well as Ben says, I'll be running two tables with closed loop.
One is preset DC values, the other takes readings directly from the MAP sensors and makes on the fly adjustments.
But closed loop also allows for dual tables, so a toggle switch can allow you to switch between high and low kPa targets. open loop mode doesnt seem to have dual tables.
I only ran open loop, as I only had the EBC working for a few days before I melted my pistons. I misunderstood closed loop and figured I needed to run fueling in closed loop as well, which you don't. So if it works as well as Ben says, I'll be running two tables with closed loop.
#17
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so im not sure I understand the advantage of this closed loop boost control. Does the open loop use a static duty cycle which may mean varying levels of boost on different days or somthing? And the closed loop thingie is there to add a bit more intelligence to the boost control or what?
I haven't tried dual EBC tables. That's kind of neat.
#18
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So i went ahead and did the mod for boost control today ... got a wire hanging out ready to be hooked up to the solenoid so i should have it up and running tomorrow I hope. Once I get that out of the way, I need to get my Automatic TPS throttle body registering so i can do throttle based boost. Hoping to have that set up for my first drag event this coming wednesday. Ill probably run about 15psi for that, and running it pretty rich too (think 11:1)
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