MS PNP requires reading and following directions???
09-22-2015, 10:04 PM
#61
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You basically just described tuning. Logging, comparing, and changing while looking for better results. Are you surprised?
AE characteristics will change with the injectors and setup you choose to run. Not even Brian or Reverent could nail it right out of the gate, that's why there are so many input parameters to get what you want from it. I will tell you much more than AE is fucked up if you can't turn it off entirely and still rev with no load. I ran with jack **** for AE for the longest time, the stock miata doesn't have much in the way of AE, so it's obviously alright without it.
I don't know how you don't understand the settings, they explain what they are. The WOT curve will not apply any more AE if you are over a certain RPM and TPS position. It says this verbatim in the menu, those are the x and y axies. How can you not get that?
Quit overthinking things.
AE characteristics will change with the injectors and setup you choose to run. Not even Brian or Reverent could nail it right out of the gate, that's why there are so many input parameters to get what you want from it. I will tell you much more than AE is fucked up if you can't turn it off entirely and still rev with no load. I ran with jack **** for AE for the longest time, the stock miata doesn't have much in the way of AE, so it's obviously alright without it.
I don't know how you don't understand the settings, they explain what they are. The WOT curve will not apply any more AE if you are over a certain RPM and TPS position. It says this verbatim in the menu, those are the x and y axies. How can you not get that?
Quit overthinking things.
"zero accel above xxxxRPM" Don't I want to accelerate to 7.5k RPM to wring the most out of the power curve?
How much is "x.x ms added" of fuel exactly? What "x.x ms of fuel" is normal?
"TPSDOT %/s" percent of a second? the numbers go to 1200... So i can get 1200% of something?
"Added ms" I'm guessing added milliseconds of fuel to the already tuned duty cycle of the injectors while activating TPS based AE... I think that one makes sense.
Accel taper time, I'm guessing it will "hold onto" enriched duty cycles for "xx" milliseconds after a TPS even occurs.
Accel time x.x ms.... LOLWUT.... Isn't added accel time in ms what TPS based AE is supposed to achieve? Why is this a setting?
TPSWOTCURVE - Isn't that THE SAME THING as the TPS AE curve? It has RPMs, and a %TPS change on the x and y axis. Is this redundant? How does this correlate to the TPS AE table?
Yeah even at 95%/s I will trigger a small AE event while shifting from 1-2 like I normally shift. I don't know if I should even increase it beyond that as most people claim the fastest %/s they see is like 300-500%/s...
So the long and short of it. Yeah, I don't get it. If all that seems self explanatory you guys are even smarter than I imagined, because that **** seems pretty complicated to me.
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09-22-2015, 10:37 PM
#62
"Full acceleration below xxxxRPM" <= that right there. So I get full acceleration under that figure? Don't I want full acceleration all the time?
You get 100% of the AE/TPSdot PW adder under that RPM. Above the zero accel number ZERO PW is added. As I said earlier, that is to taper AE because YOU DON'T NEED IT IF THE ENGINE IS TURNING FAST.
"zero accel above xxxxRPM" Don't I want to accelerate to 7.5k RPM to wring the most out of the power curve?
Who thinks like this?
How much is "x.x ms added" of fuel exactly? What "x.x ms of fuel" is normal?
It depends on how big your injectors are. And again it depends on how big your **** is.
"TPSDOT %/s" percent of a second? the numbers go to 1200... So i can get 1200% of something?
TPSdot is TPS distance over time. ******* google. It goes to whatever the **** you want it to. Log your faulty bullshit, and tune to fit.
"Added ms" I'm guessing added milliseconds of fuel to the already tuned duty cycle of the injectors while activating TPS based AE... I think that one makes sense.
More ms - more fuel
Accel taper time, I'm guessing it will "hold onto" enriched duty cycles for "xx" milliseconds after a TPS even occurs.
Says right in the menu, how many seconds it tapers the calculated PW adder back down to the current calculated value. More TPSdot, more PW, sharper taper.
Accel time x.x ms.... LOLWUT.... Isn't added accel time in ms what TPS based AE is supposed to achieve? Why is this a setting?
Length of main enrichment pulse (PW) - How long is the accel PW added to the base calc value.
TPSWOTCURVE - Isn't that THE SAME THING as the TPS AE curve? It has RPMs, and a %TPS change on the x and y axis. Is this redundant? How does this correlate to the TPS AE table?
No no NO. For the last ******* time. It's redundant and you don't need to be ******* with it. Turn it off. It does the same thing as full accel below/zero accel above, but with more data points for a non-linear curve. You don't need it.
Yeah even at 95%/s I will trigger a small AE event while shifting from 1-2 like I normally shift. I don't know if I should even increase it beyond that as most people claim the fastest %/s they see is like 300-500%/s...
I have TPSdot from 50-800, because I look at my logs. If I had TPSdot spiking over 50 while I wasn't touching the throttle my TPS would be defunct and in the garbage.
So the long and short of it. Yeah, I don't get it. If all that seems self explanatory you guys are even smarter than I imagined, because that **** seems pretty complicated to me.
You get 100% of the AE/TPSdot PW adder under that RPM. Above the zero accel number ZERO PW is added. As I said earlier, that is to taper AE because YOU DON'T NEED IT IF THE ENGINE IS TURNING FAST.
"zero accel above xxxxRPM" Don't I want to accelerate to 7.5k RPM to wring the most out of the power curve?
Who thinks like this?
How much is "x.x ms added" of fuel exactly? What "x.x ms of fuel" is normal?
It depends on how big your injectors are. And again it depends on how big your **** is.
"TPSDOT %/s" percent of a second? the numbers go to 1200... So i can get 1200% of something?
TPSdot is TPS distance over time. ******* google. It goes to whatever the **** you want it to. Log your faulty bullshit, and tune to fit.
"Added ms" I'm guessing added milliseconds of fuel to the already tuned duty cycle of the injectors while activating TPS based AE... I think that one makes sense.
More ms - more fuel
Accel taper time, I'm guessing it will "hold onto" enriched duty cycles for "xx" milliseconds after a TPS even occurs.
Says right in the menu, how many seconds it tapers the calculated PW adder back down to the current calculated value. More TPSdot, more PW, sharper taper.
Accel time x.x ms.... LOLWUT.... Isn't added accel time in ms what TPS based AE is supposed to achieve? Why is this a setting?
Length of main enrichment pulse (PW) - How long is the accel PW added to the base calc value.
TPSWOTCURVE - Isn't that THE SAME THING as the TPS AE curve? It has RPMs, and a %TPS change on the x and y axis. Is this redundant? How does this correlate to the TPS AE table?
No no NO. For the last ******* time. It's redundant and you don't need to be ******* with it. Turn it off. It does the same thing as full accel below/zero accel above, but with more data points for a non-linear curve. You don't need it.
Yeah even at 95%/s I will trigger a small AE event while shifting from 1-2 like I normally shift. I don't know if I should even increase it beyond that as most people claim the fastest %/s they see is like 300-500%/s...
I have TPSdot from 50-800, because I look at my logs. If I had TPSdot spiking over 50 while I wasn't touching the throttle my TPS would be defunct and in the garbage.
So the long and short of it. Yeah, I don't get it. If all that seems self explanatory you guys are even smarter than I imagined, because that **** seems pretty complicated to me.
None of this changes the fact that you should not even care about AE till you have a solid VE table. You are wasting time multiplying bullshit values and wonder why it doesn't work.
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09-23-2015, 08:12 AM
#63
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So would a "good VE table" have no flat spots and a good linear acceleration under all gears?
I thought my tables were pretty good before I effed with AE.
I've taken the suggestions, reverted to my previous "known" good VE table turned off TPSWOTCHRVE, and have much more milder settings. It's close, but not yet perfect.
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09-23-2015, 09:36 AM
#64
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If I could really visualize the changes like TPSDOT WOTCURVE and m/s% over time then I could get somewhere but it's all conceptual and mathematical and I don't think anyone besides Rev or Brain actually seriously understand it. I think we're all just guess and checking based off of logs, and small improvements over time.
here's how to visualize the tpsdot:
You do this:
your injectors do this:
how much they go squirt, depends on the table you populate, and tune, based on the rate you squish your throttle pedal.
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09-23-2015, 12:56 PM
#66
I'm betting they have nothing to do with your AE and EAE
You should log them, and pinpoint exactly what's happening and where. Last time I had what I thought were "flat spots" and logged them, AE and EAE were done cycling by the time the "flat spot" happened.
Deezums has a point though: until your VE map is dialed in, there's very little use to messing with the other transient settings. In fact, I usually don't even touch them until the very end, unless they're so far off that the car is pouring fuel into the chamber or dying from leanness.
When your VE map sucks, working on anything else is just wasting time.
You should log them, and pinpoint exactly what's happening and where. Last time I had what I thought were "flat spots" and logged them, AE and EAE were done cycling by the time the "flat spot" happened.
Deezums has a point though: until your VE map is dialed in, there's very little use to messing with the other transient settings. In fact, I usually don't even touch them until the very end, unless they're so far off that the car is pouring fuel into the chamber or dying from leanness.
When your VE map sucks, working on anything else is just wasting time.
Last edited by 18psi; 09-23-2015 at 01:20 PM.
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09-23-2015, 02:31 PM
#67
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I'm betting they have nothing to do with your AE and EAE
You should log them, and pinpoint exactly what's happening and where. Last time I had what I thought were "flat spots" and logged them, AE and EAE were done cycling by the time the "flat spot" happened.
Deezums has a point though: until your VE map is dialed in, there's very little use to messing with the other transient settings. In fact, I usually don't even touch them until the very end, unless they're so far off that the car is pouring fuel into the chamber or dying from leanness.
When your VE map sucks, working on anything else is just wasting time.
You should log them, and pinpoint exactly what's happening and where. Last time I had what I thought were "flat spots" and logged them, AE and EAE were done cycling by the time the "flat spot" happened.
Deezums has a point though: until your VE map is dialed in, there's very little use to messing with the other transient settings. In fact, I usually don't even touch them until the very end, unless they're so far off that the car is pouring fuel into the chamber or dying from leanness.
When your VE map sucks, working on anything else is just wasting time.
If you run AE while running VEAL, it will alter your VE table.
I just learned that ignition log isn't the actual log, so tonight I'll take her out and see if it's AE, VE, timing, leaning out, or bogging up tonight. Pretty exciting stuff. I appreciate the visuals brain they actually help.
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09-23-2015, 03:08 PM
#68
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no it won't...
VEAL specifically filters out AE conditions.
turn them off and your fuel map won't change during VEAL.
poorly tuned AE.
turbo.
VEAL specifically filters out AE conditions.
turn them off and your fuel map won't change during VEAL.
delays in power delivery
sudden cuts and sudden rushes of power between 3-6000 RPM.
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09-23-2015, 03:22 PM
#70
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honestly i dont understand the sudden cuts and rushes, id have to see a log.
if you hit spacebar while taking a log it will mark that spot so you can go look to see what your computer was told to do at those conditions.
if you hit spacebar while taking a log it will mark that spot so you can go look to see what your computer was told to do at those conditions.
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09-23-2015, 09:58 PM
#76
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Alright guys. So, in the current state of tuning...
1st gear is in danger of stalling on take-off if I am moving uphill from the stop.
2-3-4-5 the "flat spots" we discussed earlier, ONLY IF I SLAM ON THE THROTTLE (which I want the ability to do so, I mean that's why we have EFI among other things.) Gentle throttle roll on results in smooth acceleration.
cruising is good-leanish
downshifting is good-responsive
I can actually free rev by stabbing the throttle with all my might and the car responds, and recovers well in a neutral condition.
I went on a drive to my local gas station, which included a 2-3-4 WOT pull. Some cruising, and a few sudden acceleration conditions. It responds REALLY slowly if I'm say cruising in 2nd at 2.5k RPM and I step on it. So and and so forth for each sequential gear. I feel like I'm close, I just can't quite finish it.
1st gear is in danger of stalling on take-off if I am moving uphill from the stop.
2-3-4-5 the "flat spots" we discussed earlier, ONLY IF I SLAM ON THE THROTTLE (which I want the ability to do so, I mean that's why we have EFI among other things.) Gentle throttle roll on results in smooth acceleration.
cruising is good-leanish
downshifting is good-responsive
I can actually free rev by stabbing the throttle with all my might and the car responds, and recovers well in a neutral condition.
I went on a drive to my local gas station, which included a 2-3-4 WOT pull. Some cruising, and a few sudden acceleration conditions. It responds REALLY slowly if I'm say cruising in 2nd at 2.5k RPM and I step on it. So and and so forth for each sequential gear. I feel like I'm close, I just can't quite finish it.
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09-23-2015, 10:07 PM
#77
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At 1560s I feel like you can see the stumble. The duty cycles do this crazy sine wave for no apparent reason. Injector lock? Am I demanding too much fuel? However that can't be right. I feel it at 3200, 3800, 4000, 4500, 5000, 6200 RPMs, predictably...
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09-24-2015, 12:37 AM
#79
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Yes the weird sine waves I am speaking of happen at 1572 on duty cycle 1. Is it because my hard rev limit is set to 7000?
Is my MAP lag factor not right being set at 20? Should it be higher, lower?
Looking at the log, I can't see anything that immediately jumps out and tells me what I'm feeling in the car...
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