My dyno rant
03-27-2008, 01:54 PM
#1
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My dyno rant
"The Tuner, the Thief, his Wife, and her Dyno"
A Rant in Four Parts
Act 1, Where our Protagonist First Seeks Council
Having recently come upon a point of relative completeness as to the functionality of my Megasquirt, naively did I embark upon the journey to procure the services of a dynamometer that should the tuning of the VE table be brought to completion.
"Kind sir, wouldst that I might place my small red car upon the wheels of thy load-bearing dyno, that I should tune this ECU which my own hands hath constructed?"
"You can't load-tune on this dyno."
"Nope."
Act 2, Where Preparation Brings Rebuke
Having once been deceived in the matter, I set upon a quest to learn all that is known about the various dynanometers that may in this great land be found. Research led me to the web page of Mustang Dynanometers, the repository of knowledge contained therein including amongst many other jewels a file whose contents listed those many shops across the nation within whose walls a Mustang dyno might be found. Thus was discovered one Diamond Motorsports, of all things a tuner and customizer of Mazda Miatas! Surely would I be welcome in this haven.
"Good sir," spake I unto the man whose hat the Diamond logo bore, "Is it here at your fine shop that the services of a Mustang model MD-250 dyno I might procure?"
"Shop's closed."
"For sooth! How terrible the hand of fate that thine enterprise hath failed to flourish! For while many are those who a Mazda Miata would service, few are they that unto such a platform a 5.0 liter Ford Mustang would transplant. And what, may I inquire, of the dyno has become?"
"Check with a guy named Barry Powell at Manning Motorsports. He used to work for me, did all the dyno work. Three blocks up, two blocks over."
Act 3, of Which no Good Cometh
No sign bore the name of "Manning Motorsports" at the small industrial building upon which I happened, but the council of a man servicing a Triumph TR-7 upon a lift inside directed me to a tiny adjacent building, within which was contained an American pickup truck, its innards splayed haphazardly across the ground.
"Mr. Powell?" I meekly inquired of the man whose tremendous hands at that moment bore a filthy power steering pump, its precious fluids spilt and sqandered.
"Yeah."
"It is said unto me that thou art the keeper and bearer of knowledge, yea, and also of dyno services, that by which my small red car might be elevated unto a state of greater tune whose equal is known only as nirvana amongst the faithful and true!"
"Sorry, we sold the dyno."
"By Luficer's beard," I cried, "for three is now the number of shops by whose council have unfulfilled my expectations been!
"You could try a place called Scott's Auto and Muffler, down in Encinitas. They've got a chassis dyno- some Australian thing."
Act 4, Wherein our Protagonist Asks "Is there no man in this great land of North San Diego County who will take my money?"
"Some Australian Thing" can mean only the fabled Dyno Dynamics. For while they speak in an arcane tongue of kilowatts and Newton-metres, their equipment is known across the land as faithful and true. And though the location Scott's Automotive is a mystery unto Google Maps (being indicated to reside actually upon a beach) that they are but scant few miles from my place of dwelling, and the number of their address nearby in number to that of "Cap'n Kenos", an old surfer restaurant where for the consideration of but a single dollar may one procure a plate of shrimp and but for $2.50 a dinner entire, did eventually its location become apparent to my searching eyes.
"Hark!" say I, "for though this shop be small and ill-kept, do not my eyes witness the sight of rollers set into the ground! Good sir, I beseech thee, for long and great have been my travels. But at an end my journey now would seem, for there before me do not I witness the most beautiful sight, a Dyno Dynamics model 450DS chassis dynamometer whose magnetic eddy current brake, being rated at 450 kW, surely sufficient must be, the forces of my meager turbocharged four cylinder engine continuously to dissipate?"
"The dyno's broke."
"Oh cruel fate! For what affliction hath been dealt such a beautiful machine, that its rollers turn no more?"
"I tried firing it up back in January. Looks like rats chewed through the cabling."
"But surely, must not the repair of such an ailment be swiftly undertaken?"
"Probably I'll get around to it someday. Got more work than I can handle now though."
"It is hypocrisy against the devil: They that mean virtuously, and yet do so, The devil their virtue tempts, and they tempt heaven!"
"Sorry, dude."
A Rant in Four Parts
Act 1, Where our Protagonist First Seeks Council
Having recently come upon a point of relative completeness as to the functionality of my Megasquirt, naively did I embark upon the journey to procure the services of a dynamometer that should the tuning of the VE table be brought to completion.
"VW Paradise is proud to be the leader in North San Diego County in high horsepower engines. Our new Dynojet dyno is the latest in tuning equipment to get the most from your motor.
$125 for three HP pulls.
$150 per hour for tuning and mapping."
So stated the advertisement of a shop located mere blocks of my place of business, and with which many times have I transacted business to procure various necessities, a dealer of Earl's Plumbing and other such goods they be. With haste then did I proceed to their door, money and laptop in hand, that I might enroll the services of their tuning equipment. $125 for three HP pulls.
$150 per hour for tuning and mapping."
"Kind sir, wouldst that I might place my small red car upon the wheels of thy load-bearing dyno, that I should tune this ECU which my own hands hath constructed?"
"You can't load-tune on this dyno."
"But as surely as thy advertising copy states otherwise and thou art verily a most respected builder of engines whose performance knows no equal amongst the followers of the design of Herr Ferdinand Porsche, though they be antiquated have yet stood the test of time and hath many generations served, deadheads and surfers, but serious competitors also. Though thy dyno be inertial, must thou not possess the eddy current brake option that steady-state tuning may be accomplished? Why then else should be drawn a distinction in thy literature between mere HP pulls and that which tuning and mapping is called?"
"Nope."
Act 2, Where Preparation Brings Rebuke
Having once been deceived in the matter, I set upon a quest to learn all that is known about the various dynanometers that may in this great land be found. Research led me to the web page of Mustang Dynanometers, the repository of knowledge contained therein including amongst many other jewels a file whose contents listed those many shops across the nation within whose walls a Mustang dyno might be found. Thus was discovered one Diamond Motorsports, of all things a tuner and customizer of Mazda Miatas! Surely would I be welcome in this haven.
"Good sir," spake I unto the man whose hat the Diamond logo bore, "Is it here at your fine shop that the services of a Mustang model MD-250 dyno I might procure?"
"Shop's closed."
"For sooth! How terrible the hand of fate that thine enterprise hath failed to flourish! For while many are those who a Mazda Miata would service, few are they that unto such a platform a 5.0 liter Ford Mustang would transplant. And what, may I inquire, of the dyno has become?"
"Check with a guy named Barry Powell at Manning Motorsports. He used to work for me, did all the dyno work. Three blocks up, two blocks over."
Act 3, of Which no Good Cometh
No sign bore the name of "Manning Motorsports" at the small industrial building upon which I happened, but the council of a man servicing a Triumph TR-7 upon a lift inside directed me to a tiny adjacent building, within which was contained an American pickup truck, its innards splayed haphazardly across the ground.
"Mr. Powell?" I meekly inquired of the man whose tremendous hands at that moment bore a filthy power steering pump, its precious fluids spilt and sqandered.
"Yeah."
"It is said unto me that thou art the keeper and bearer of knowledge, yea, and also of dyno services, that by which my small red car might be elevated unto a state of greater tune whose equal is known only as nirvana amongst the faithful and true!"
"Sorry, we sold the dyno."
"By Luficer's beard," I cried, "for three is now the number of shops by whose council have unfulfilled my expectations been!
"You could try a place called Scott's Auto and Muffler, down in Encinitas. They've got a chassis dyno- some Australian thing."
Act 4, Wherein our Protagonist Asks "Is there no man in this great land of North San Diego County who will take my money?"
"Some Australian Thing" can mean only the fabled Dyno Dynamics. For while they speak in an arcane tongue of kilowatts and Newton-metres, their equipment is known across the land as faithful and true. And though the location Scott's Automotive is a mystery unto Google Maps (being indicated to reside actually upon a beach) that they are but scant few miles from my place of dwelling, and the number of their address nearby in number to that of "Cap'n Kenos", an old surfer restaurant where for the consideration of but a single dollar may one procure a plate of shrimp and but for $2.50 a dinner entire, did eventually its location become apparent to my searching eyes.
"Hark!" say I, "for though this shop be small and ill-kept, do not my eyes witness the sight of rollers set into the ground! Good sir, I beseech thee, for long and great have been my travels. But at an end my journey now would seem, for there before me do not I witness the most beautiful sight, a Dyno Dynamics model 450DS chassis dynamometer whose magnetic eddy current brake, being rated at 450 kW, surely sufficient must be, the forces of my meager turbocharged four cylinder engine continuously to dissipate?"
"The dyno's broke."
"Oh cruel fate! For what affliction hath been dealt such a beautiful machine, that its rollers turn no more?"
"I tried firing it up back in January. Looks like rats chewed through the cabling."
"But surely, must not the repair of such an ailment be swiftly undertaken?"
"Probably I'll get around to it someday. Got more work than I can handle now though."
"It is hypocrisy against the devil: They that mean virtuously, and yet do so, The devil their virtue tempts, and they tempt heaven!"
"Sorry, dude."
Last edited by Joe Perez; 03-27-2008 at 04:02 PM.
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what spirit were you channeling to brush up on your olde tongue?
03-27-2008, 02:06 PM
#5
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Perhaps a certain EE could repair a certain dyno's wiring, in exchange for usage of repaired equipment.
PS, you should move this way. We have dynos running out of our asses...
PS, you should move this way. We have dynos running out of our asses...
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03-27-2008, 02:06 PM
#6
Verily brother, I say unto you, the object of your desire lays a mear 300 leagues to the north east.
http://www.revolutionsperformance.com/dyno.php
http://www.revolutionsperformance.com/dyno.php
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03-27-2008, 02:07 PM
#7
Originally Posted by Joe Perez;234408
[FONT=Book Antiqua
[FONT=Book Antiqua
"[/FONT]It is hypocrisy against the devil: They that mean virtuously, and yet do so, The devil their virtue tempts, and they tempt heaven!"
"Sorry, dude."
"Sorry, dude."
Joe, methinks thou hast an abundance of time, verily.
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03-27-2008, 02:56 PM
#12
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It is none but he who is called Laycock de Normanville, the patron saint of Mechanical Angst and Frustration. And be the words of Shakespeare's Othello, the Moore of Venice, the conclusion of my story. Yet concluded the story be? Or be it but the merest prelude of that which is to come. Know ye, dear Braineack, who wields heavily the banstick and is the Administrator of Forums, satisfaction shall yet be mine, should I be made to travel unto the ends of San Diego county, yea, even unto those areas where white men with BMWs fear to tread.
Foul Tormentor! That ye wouldst raise so distant a hope. Should not such an expanse I traverse for these services, for though Southern California once be the birthplace of Car Culture, so desolate a wasteland hath it become. For sooth, the cruel reign of the Evil Tyrant her Lordship Chairman Mary D. Nichols, a blight unto the land hath been. So numerous are the Rules and Orders of the California Air Resources Board, that none should prosper in this dark age of emissions control whose business the modification and tuning of automotive engines be. Like unto the rocky soil of the place which is called Baja, their roots find no purchase and they wither and die.
For no lesser the journey to Grand Junction be. Should not the Land of Fruits and Nuts yield up but one place which is to be the provider of dyno services? And in the fullness of time, so shall it come to pass. For I am he who is called the Tinkerer and the Designer of Things, and no obstacle shall be so great that it should not in this quest be overcome.
Nay, for he who is called Scott the Lesser has made his peace- that so plentiful be the business of Scott's Auto & Muffler, no more customers does he desire. A curse shall be unto his head- for as he fails to equip his dwelling with any but the direst and most aged of equipment, shall the coming of the electric vehicles be his ruin. For in the end, will the cars which roam the soil of Southern California have not mufflers, nor internal combustion engines neither, and woe unto those who ill-prepared for this revolution be, and a pauper's retirement be their lot.
Yet dynanometers runneth out from thine ***? So strange be the things which issue forth from the asses of those who inhabit the mysterious lands to the East... https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showpost.php?p=226746&postcount=8
Originally Posted by Chris Swearingen
Verily brother, I say unto you, the object of your desire lays a mear 300 leagues to the north east.
http://www.revolutionsperformance.com/dyno.php
http://www.revolutionsperformance.com/dyno.php
Originally Posted by mazda/nissan
i hear flyinmiata has got a dyno, maybe they'll only charge a leg?
Originally Posted by Ben
Perhaps a certain EE could repair a certain dyno's wiring, in exchange for usage of repaired equipment.
PS, you should move this way. We have dynos running out of our asses...
PS, you should move this way. We have dynos running out of our asses...
Yet dynanometers runneth out from thine ***? So strange be the things which issue forth from the asses of those who inhabit the mysterious lands to the East... https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/showpost.php?p=226746&postcount=8
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03-27-2008, 03:02 PM
#14
I won't even pretend to be able to talk like that.
I just called Rocky at Dennstedt's and he says they send all their guys to The Dyno Shop in Santee... http://www.thedynoshop.com/pages/contact.htm Tell'em Dennstedts sent you.
I just called Rocky at Dennstedt's and he says they send all their guys to The Dyno Shop in Santee... http://www.thedynoshop.com/pages/contact.htm Tell'em Dennstedts sent you.
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03-27-2008, 03:22 PM
#16
I am still saving my pennies to run to Church's Automotive in Long Beach for my tuning. There are several here and on M.net that have used them with great success. I asked him about the MS and he said they have tuned on it and the Hydra before. $170 an hour for tuning though...
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03-27-2008, 03:23 PM
#17
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there is a local dude who can tune your car. at a viper shop that is.
http://www.dcperformance.com/
you are looking for chris. he can tune megasquirt very well. in fact, thats where im going to tune my car once turbo is in.
http://www.dcperformance.com/
you are looking for chris. he can tune megasquirt very well. in fact, thats where im going to tune my car once turbo is in.
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03-27-2008, 03:40 PM
#19
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joe, call the dyno manufacturer's local rep. tell them you want to tune and that every where you go, their brand of dyno is broken and you want satisfaction.
Here's one: http://aussieimportsllc.com/ ...guy is Steve Nichols. Decent enough dude, been around the block and sells dyno dynamics products. met him at Shiv's open house back in the day. Dont know if he's still in the biz. his website sucks balzac.
Here's one: http://aussieimportsllc.com/ ...guy is Steve Nichols. Decent enough dude, been around the block and sells dyno dynamics products. met him at Shiv's open house back in the day. Dont know if he's still in the biz. his website sucks balzac.
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03-27-2008, 03:59 PM
#20
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Heh. I'm just getting a tad frustrated. There are plenty of shops in the area, I just wanted to find one close to home. The Mustang and DynoDyne websites have about a half dozen shops listed that are <50 miles away- I need to start using the phone first before I drive out to every shop I come across.
You have two basic types of dyno- intertial and steady-state (aka load-bearing.)
An inertial dyno consists of a very large, very heavy drum. We're talking about a roller four feet in diameter here. There's a reason most DynoJet dynos require you do drive up on a lift to get over the drums. See this picture: http://www.goffautomotivemachine.com/a248.jpg Those huge boxes in the back are where the drums are housed.
The drum is mounted on a bearing, and is not restrained in any way. The wheels are placed upon the drum, full throttle is applied, and the power of the engine acts against the inertia of the drum, causing it to begin spinning.
The mass (weight) of the drum is a known constant. The dyno constantly measures the speed of the drum, and calculates the rate at which it is accelerating. By applying Newton's second law (force = mass x acceleration) the dyno computer can figure out how much force (torque) is being applied to the drum. DynoJet dynos are of this design.
The downside here is that because nothing is restraining the drum, anytime you apply force to it the drum will accelerate. This is fine if you just want to do a simple HP / Torque plot (which is the chart that everyone posts when they brag about their engine) but it's not very useful for tuning.
ECUs like the MS divide up their fuel and ignition tables into a row / column sheet consisting of a bunch of individual cells. To properly tune a device like this, you need to be able to hold the engine in an operating condition such that RPM and MAP are dead-center in the middle of one of the cells while you make adjustments to the value of that cell. Once you're satisfied, you move to the next cell.
This is where a steady-state dyno comes in. They use some kind of variable braking mechanism to hold the speed of the rollers constant. If you apply more power, more braking force is applied to the drum. If you reduce power, the braking force is reduced. Modern steady-state dynos typically use an electromagnetic brake (the so-called eddy-current dyno), some, such as the RotoTest, use a hydraulic pump as the brake- same basic concept. To determine the amount of force being applied to the roller, you can either measure the amount of power being applied to the brake in its native units (voltage and current in the case of the electromagnetic brake, pressure and flow for the hydraulic unit) or more commonly you can use a linear load-sensing cell, essentially a fancy electric scale, and directly measure the force being applied by the braking unit upon its mount.
So for instance, you might tell the dyno operator to set the rollers for 3,000 RPM (engine RPM, not dyno RPM) and then you use the throttle to put MAP at, say 50 kPa. The dyno, having been set to 3,000 RPM, applies enough braking force to the drum such that the engine can spin up to 3,000 RPM, but no more. You tune that cell, then you push the throttle down a little to get 75 kPa. The dyno senses that the drum is accelerating, and applies more braking force to hold it at speed. Mustang and DynoDynamics dynos are of this design.
Dynojet does offer an eddy-current brake as an option for their dynos, but frankly the more I read the more I'm turned off by Dynojet in general. I'm going to find someone around here with a proper dyno.
Whats the difference between a load bearing dyno and a non load bearing dyno, if there is such a thing?
An inertial dyno consists of a very large, very heavy drum. We're talking about a roller four feet in diameter here. There's a reason most DynoJet dynos require you do drive up on a lift to get over the drums. See this picture: http://www.goffautomotivemachine.com/a248.jpg Those huge boxes in the back are where the drums are housed.
The drum is mounted on a bearing, and is not restrained in any way. The wheels are placed upon the drum, full throttle is applied, and the power of the engine acts against the inertia of the drum, causing it to begin spinning.
The mass (weight) of the drum is a known constant. The dyno constantly measures the speed of the drum, and calculates the rate at which it is accelerating. By applying Newton's second law (force = mass x acceleration) the dyno computer can figure out how much force (torque) is being applied to the drum. DynoJet dynos are of this design.
The downside here is that because nothing is restraining the drum, anytime you apply force to it the drum will accelerate. This is fine if you just want to do a simple HP / Torque plot (which is the chart that everyone posts when they brag about their engine) but it's not very useful for tuning.
ECUs like the MS divide up their fuel and ignition tables into a row / column sheet consisting of a bunch of individual cells. To properly tune a device like this, you need to be able to hold the engine in an operating condition such that RPM and MAP are dead-center in the middle of one of the cells while you make adjustments to the value of that cell. Once you're satisfied, you move to the next cell.
This is where a steady-state dyno comes in. They use some kind of variable braking mechanism to hold the speed of the rollers constant. If you apply more power, more braking force is applied to the drum. If you reduce power, the braking force is reduced. Modern steady-state dynos typically use an electromagnetic brake (the so-called eddy-current dyno), some, such as the RotoTest, use a hydraulic pump as the brake- same basic concept. To determine the amount of force being applied to the roller, you can either measure the amount of power being applied to the brake in its native units (voltage and current in the case of the electromagnetic brake, pressure and flow for the hydraulic unit) or more commonly you can use a linear load-sensing cell, essentially a fancy electric scale, and directly measure the force being applied by the braking unit upon its mount.
So for instance, you might tell the dyno operator to set the rollers for 3,000 RPM (engine RPM, not dyno RPM) and then you use the throttle to put MAP at, say 50 kPa. The dyno, having been set to 3,000 RPM, applies enough braking force to the drum such that the engine can spin up to 3,000 RPM, but no more. You tune that cell, then you push the throttle down a little to get 75 kPa. The dyno senses that the drum is accelerating, and applies more braking force to hold it at speed. Mustang and DynoDynamics dynos are of this design.
Dynojet does offer an eddy-current brake as an option for their dynos, but frankly the more I read the more I'm turned off by Dynojet in general. I'm going to find someone around here with a proper dyno.
Last edited by Joe Perez; 03-27-2008 at 07:00 PM. Reason: Added pictures.
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