Some Help in Understanding Different Megasquirts
07-15-2014, 06:20 PM
#1
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Some Help in Understanding Different Megasquirts
I've waded through the stickies, but most of them are pretty old and maybe outdated. A lot of the info there is probably great stuff for someone who gets the various acronyms. I'm interested in putting a Megasquirts in my car, but am having trouble trying to educate myself.
There, apparently, are many different Megasquirts out there. MS DIY PNP, MS2, MS3, MS with VVT controller and then there's Reverent.
I have an '03 with an FMIi Voodoo system. Car runs great does everything that the stock one does and has good power. But, as I was warned, boost is addictive and at 8 psi I'm at the limits of the stock injectors and piggyback system.
I'd like to go standalone, but only if I can wind up with a civilized car that doesn't need constant tweaking or workarounds. I'm not opposed to doing some work to tweak the system, but I'm not a computer head but can manage as long as I'm not having to deal with command lines and too much geeky stuff. Menu driven stuff I can pretty much handle.
I'm not looking to do it on the cheap. I'd rather spend $$ on something that will be easy to tune as opposed to months of tweaking. I'd probably go with a Hydra Nemisis if it weren't for the fact that they don't seem to support previous versions very well and seem to have their own connectivity and tuning issues.
So, bring on the flames for having a Voodoo box but please try to help me make some sense of a subject that, for the moment, is over my head.
Paul
There, apparently, are many different Megasquirts out there. MS DIY PNP, MS2, MS3, MS with VVT controller and then there's Reverent.
I have an '03 with an FMIi Voodoo system. Car runs great does everything that the stock one does and has good power. But, as I was warned, boost is addictive and at 8 psi I'm at the limits of the stock injectors and piggyback system.
I'd like to go standalone, but only if I can wind up with a civilized car that doesn't need constant tweaking or workarounds. I'm not opposed to doing some work to tweak the system, but I'm not a computer head but can manage as long as I'm not having to deal with command lines and too much geeky stuff. Menu driven stuff I can pretty much handle.
I'm not looking to do it on the cheap. I'd rather spend $$ on something that will be easy to tune as opposed to months of tweaking. I'd probably go with a Hydra Nemisis if it weren't for the fact that they don't seem to support previous versions very well and seem to have their own connectivity and tuning issues.
So, bring on the flames for having a Voodoo box but please try to help me make some sense of a subject that, for the moment, is over my head.
Paul
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07-15-2014, 06:39 PM
#2
So, the first question is: do you have any tuning experience? It's all for not if you get a super snazzy standalone and then don't know what to do with it. Second, do you want this to be your new hobby? If not then leaving well-enough alone is not a bad idea.
That said, we're kind of in the same boat. The setup I bought uses a gen 1 MSPNP, which has its own set of limitations. It appears the MS Labs MS3 Basic is about as good as it gets for plug-n-play, I'm considering getting one even before I overhaul my hardware.
I can say that VE Analyze Live is wonderful at helping fill in the intellectual blanks for your VE table, assuming you don't have a fundamental hardware problem.
I'd say keep reading up through the MS forums and the stickies here. It'll take time but there's good info here.
That said, we're kind of in the same boat. The setup I bought uses a gen 1 MSPNP, which has its own set of limitations. It appears the MS Labs MS3 Basic is about as good as it gets for plug-n-play, I'm considering getting one even before I overhaul my hardware.
I can say that VE Analyze Live is wonderful at helping fill in the intellectual blanks for your VE table, assuming you don't have a fundamental hardware problem.
I'd say keep reading up through the MS forums and the stickies here. It'll take time but there's good info here.
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07-15-2014, 10:23 PM
#3
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So, the first question is: do you have any tuning experience? It's all for not if you get a super snazzy standalone and then don't know what to do with it. Second, do you want this to be your new hobby? If not then leaving well-enough alone is not a bad idea.
That said, we're kind of in the same boat. The setup I bought uses a gen 1 MSPNP, which has its own set of limitations. It appears the MS Labs MS3 Basic is about as good as it gets for plug-n-play, I'm considering getting one even before I overhaul my hardware.
I can say that VE Analyze Live is wonderful at helping fill in the intellectual blanks for your VE table, assuming you don't have a fundamental hardware problem.
I'd say keep reading up through the MS forums and the stickies here. It'll take time but there's good info here.
That said, we're kind of in the same boat. The setup I bought uses a gen 1 MSPNP, which has its own set of limitations. It appears the MS Labs MS3 Basic is about as good as it gets for plug-n-play, I'm considering getting one even before I overhaul my hardware.
I can say that VE Analyze Live is wonderful at helping fill in the intellectual blanks for your VE table, assuming you don't have a fundamental hardware problem.
I'd say keep reading up through the MS forums and the stickies here. It'll take time but there's good info here.
I'm still trying to find out the differences between all the iterations of Megasquirts so I can start the learning process. I've been reading the forums, off and on, and much of the language is Greek to me and the Stickies are pretty old. Still hoping for a summary of what these are as in the MS PNP does this and the Reverant basic can do that, etc.
Thanks for the response Ryephile.
Paul
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07-15-2014, 10:42 PM
#4
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You're a prime candidate for FM Hydra then. There are no shortcuts with Megasquirt (save for having someone like Reverant build your MS for you and provide you with a base tune and support). Read the megamanual. Then read it again. Download tuner studio and dig through that. Go back and read the megamanual again. If you don't want to tune yourself and just want to build upon your basic FM setup then why not go with FM's preferred EMS?
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07-15-2014, 11:14 PM
#5
You're a prime candidate for FM Hydra then. There are no shortcuts with Megasquirt (save for having someone like Reverant build your MS for you and provide you with a base tune and support). Read the megamanual. Then read it again. Download tuner studio and dig through that. Go back and read the megamanual again. If you don't want to tune yourself and just want to build upon your basic FM setup then why not go with FM's preferred EMS?
The only shortcut that exists for Hydra is writing FM a blank check and hoping that it's tuned right when they give it to you because unless you live in CO nobody else is going to touch it. Oh, that and writing FM a couple hundred dollar check every time the software updates (because they can't afford to have a $50 laptop, let alone a VM around to support old versions).
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07-16-2014, 07:31 AM
#6
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I like FM but I don't like the Hydra business plan. If I go standalone it would have to be something like what Reverant puts together I guess.
What I seem to be understanding here is that most MS set ups require quite a bit of time and tweaking to get right. That's understandable and probably fun for a lot of people and satisfying once you get it right.
What about the Reverant deal, in the real world,how much is required to dial in one of his systems? Is it near-stock in idling, A/C and power steering etc. once it's done? I've read some good things about his support, but mostly from his posts on a different forum. I'm not averse to doing some tuning but it'd have to be relatively straight forward. I'm 66 and don't have the patience to learn new computer programs as I once did.
I wouldn't mind picking up a little more power, but if I have to stay with Voodoo, that's not so bad. The car runs great as it is right now.
Paul
What I seem to be understanding here is that most MS set ups require quite a bit of time and tweaking to get right. That's understandable and probably fun for a lot of people and satisfying once you get it right.
What about the Reverant deal, in the real world,how much is required to dial in one of his systems? Is it near-stock in idling, A/C and power steering etc. once it's done? I've read some good things about his support, but mostly from his posts on a different forum. I'm not averse to doing some tuning but it'd have to be relatively straight forward. I'm 66 and don't have the patience to learn new computer programs as I once did.
I wouldn't mind picking up a little more power, but if I have to stay with Voodoo, that's not so bad. The car runs great as it is right now.
Paul
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07-16-2014, 07:33 AM
#7
Nobody is a candidate for the Hydra. That thing is ******* terrible and anyone who recommends it has never used it.
The only shortcut that exists for Hydra is writing FM a blank check and hoping that it's tuned right when they give it to you because unless you live in CO nobody else is going to touch it. Oh, that and writing FM a couple hundred dollar check every time the software updates (because they can't afford to have a $50 laptop, let alone a VM around to support old versions).
The only shortcut that exists for Hydra is writing FM a blank check and hoping that it's tuned right when they give it to you because unless you live in CO nobody else is going to touch it. Oh, that and writing FM a couple hundred dollar check every time the software updates (because they can't afford to have a $50 laptop, let alone a VM around to support old versions).
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07-16-2014, 11:22 AM
#8
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Just from personal experience, I started with a VooDoo kit knowing full well that it was only a "get your feet wet" kind of system. I spent several months reading, re-reading and re-reading again all of the info I could here on MT.net and on MSEXTRA about the Megasquirt; got confused, got educated and got confused again.
I thought I was ready to "Go Megasquirt" and bought a used MS3X (thinking I was saving money and being smart) and that was a total fail because; a) I'm "electronics challenged" and b) the learning curve was super steep. So I sold the MS3X to someone smarter than me and bought a gen 2 MSPNP to eliminate dealing with my electronics-fail, and only work through the MS learning curve.
Six months later, my tune is "fair" (the car starts, runs and drives well - but there still are some areas that need work). I can find my way around TunerStudio for the most part. I can make sense (I think) of VE tables, spark tables and can read datalogs to make semi-intelligent decisions as to what problems are and what to do about them.
I still have a long way to go, but I think I've lifted myself out of the tuning "primordial ooze".
Short answer...it can be done, but it ain't easy.
I thought I was ready to "Go Megasquirt" and bought a used MS3X (thinking I was saving money and being smart) and that was a total fail because; a) I'm "electronics challenged" and b) the learning curve was super steep. So I sold the MS3X to someone smarter than me and bought a gen 2 MSPNP to eliminate dealing with my electronics-fail, and only work through the MS learning curve.
Six months later, my tune is "fair" (the car starts, runs and drives well - but there still are some areas that need work). I can find my way around TunerStudio for the most part. I can make sense (I think) of VE tables, spark tables and can read datalogs to make semi-intelligent decisions as to what problems are and what to do about them.
I still have a long way to go, but I think I've lifted myself out of the tuning "primordial ooze".
Short answer...it can be done, but it ain't easy.
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07-16-2014, 11:45 AM
#9
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A few quick questions: what made you run the voodoo on the '03? I have a friend who was interested in this setup, and we were told by FM that it's not recommended for the VVT engines because of the higher compression.
Have you had it dyno'd?
On to your questions, here's a run down of a few acronyms:
MS1 - Antiquated system. Good for cheap cars, mostly 1.6s that aren't worth much more these days than the $800 MS2PNP ECUs.
MSPNP - 2 generations:
1st gen - built for Miatas only on an MS1 platform and were PNP into the factory harness for only '90-'93, '94-'95, and '96-'97. The NAs basically. No '99-'00 VICs or '01+ VVT motor was supported.
2nd gen - now built for a number of vehicles from BMWs to Nissans, and of course the Miata. Built off a MS2 platform. Only supports up to '00 though, again no VVT engines are supported.
MS DIY PNP - This is a confusing name, the "DIY" is the key though. It needs to be completely soldered together, but it comes with everything required so that once it's done, it's PNP to your factory harness.
MS2 - A great ECU for some of the more basic Miatas, such as ones without the need for AC control, VVT control, etc.
MS3 - A small step down from MS3x (below)
MS3x - You forgot this one in your list, and it's the latest and greatest, ignoring the water proof MS3-pro, which was built to compete mainly with the $1000+AEM units.
VVT tuner - this is a separate box available from DIYautotune.com for $200, and controls VVT separately from any MS ECU. A second tuning cable, and it's own wiring harness needs to be setup to use this.
Revarant MS - He builds MS2s, enhanced MS2s, MS3s, and I believe enhanced MS3s are still in the prototype phase? Not sure on this. Read his MS comparison chart to get an understanding of what they do, but they're PNP units for '90-'05, most can run VVT, and any number of other inputs and outputs.
Have you had it dyno'd?
On to your questions, here's a run down of a few acronyms:
MS1 - Antiquated system. Good for cheap cars, mostly 1.6s that aren't worth much more these days than the $800 MS2PNP ECUs.
MSPNP - 2 generations:
1st gen - built for Miatas only on an MS1 platform and were PNP into the factory harness for only '90-'93, '94-'95, and '96-'97. The NAs basically. No '99-'00 VICs or '01+ VVT motor was supported.
2nd gen - now built for a number of vehicles from BMWs to Nissans, and of course the Miata. Built off a MS2 platform. Only supports up to '00 though, again no VVT engines are supported.
MS DIY PNP - This is a confusing name, the "DIY" is the key though. It needs to be completely soldered together, but it comes with everything required so that once it's done, it's PNP to your factory harness.
MS2 - A great ECU for some of the more basic Miatas, such as ones without the need for AC control, VVT control, etc.
MS3 - A small step down from MS3x (below)
MS3x - You forgot this one in your list, and it's the latest and greatest, ignoring the water proof MS3-pro, which was built to compete mainly with the $1000+AEM units.
VVT tuner - this is a separate box available from DIYautotune.com for $200, and controls VVT separately from any MS ECU. A second tuning cable, and it's own wiring harness needs to be setup to use this.
Revarant MS - He builds MS2s, enhanced MS2s, MS3s, and I believe enhanced MS3s are still in the prototype phase? Not sure on this. Read his MS comparison chart to get an understanding of what they do, but they're PNP units for '90-'05, most can run VVT, and any number of other inputs and outputs.
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07-16-2014, 12:07 PM
#11
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To clarify the difference between a Reverent built "Basic MS3" versus a DIYAutoTune MS3X (v3.0 mainboard, MS3 daughter board and MS3X expansion board), see MS Labs ECU Comparison Sheet and read the comments below
The Basic MS3 is (functionality wise) like an MS3X/MS3X combo, but it also has upgraded hardware components and the required digital alternator control/smart battery light for the 99-05. It is a direct fit for any 90-05 Miata, as it comes with the proper adapter harness.
ms3x is the basic offering from B&G. This is typically a v3.0 mainboard, a ms3 daughterboard and a ms3x expander board.
this MS3 basic from Rev, is the same thing, but he designed his own expander board to build better circuits into it. Still a v3.0 mainboard and still a ms3 daughterboard.
There is little difference between the two. (Rev please correct me if I'm wrong)
the MS3 enhanced is something Reverant has designed from the ground up using his own PCB for the ms3 or ms2 daughterboard, with custom firmware to match. This comes with hardware and firmware improvements. He's working on a licensing deal to get this offering out to market.
Eeverything built by Reverant is a PNP and you can deal with him directly to customize your build or discuss the vairous options in megasquirts that he can assemble for you.
this MS3 basic from Rev, is the same thing, but he designed his own expander board to build better circuits into it. Still a v3.0 mainboard and still a ms3 daughterboard.
There is little difference between the two. (Rev please correct me if I'm wrong)
the MS3 enhanced is something Reverant has designed from the ground up using his own PCB for the ms3 or ms2 daughterboard, with custom firmware to match. This comes with hardware and firmware improvements. He's working on a licensing deal to get this offering out to market.
Eeverything built by Reverant is a PNP and you can deal with him directly to customize your build or discuss the vairous options in megasquirts that he can assemble for you.
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07-16-2014, 06:58 PM
#12
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A few quick questions: what made you run the voodoo on the '03? I have a friend who was interested in this setup, and we were told by FM that it's not recommended for the VVT engines because of the higher compression.
Have you had it dyno'd?
On to your questions, here's a run down of a few acronyms:
MS1 - Antiquated system. Good for cheap cars, mostly 1.6s that aren't worth much more these days than the $800 MS2PNP ECUs.
MSPNP - 2 generations:
1st gen - built for Miatas only on an MS1 platform and were PNP into the factory harness for only '90-'93, '94-'95, and '96-'97. The NAs basically. No '99-'00 VICs or '01+ VVT motor was supported.
2nd gen - now built for a number of vehicles from BMWs to Nissans, and of course the Miata. Built off a MS2 platform. Only supports up to '00 though, again no VVT engines are supported.
MS DIY PNP - This is a confusing name, the "DIY" is the key though. It needs to be completely soldered together, but it comes with everything required so that once it's done, it's PNP to your factory harness.
MS2 - A great ECU for some of the more basic Miatas, such as ones without the need for AC control, VVT control, etc.
MS3 - A small step down from MS3x (below)
MS3x - You forgot this one in your list, and it's the latest and greatest, ignoring the water proof MS3-pro, which was built to compete mainly with the $1000+AEM units.
VVT tuner - this is a separate box available from DIYautotune.com for $200, and controls VVT separately from any MS ECU. A second tuning cable, and it's own wiring harness needs to be setup to use this.
Revarant MS - He builds MS2s, enhanced MS2s, MS3s, and I believe enhanced MS3s are still in the prototype phase? Not sure on this. Read his MS comparison chart to get an understanding of what they do, but they're PNP units for '90-'05, most can run VVT, and any number of other inputs and outputs.
Have you had it dyno'd?
On to your questions, here's a run down of a few acronyms:
MS1 - Antiquated system. Good for cheap cars, mostly 1.6s that aren't worth much more these days than the $800 MS2PNP ECUs.
MSPNP - 2 generations:
1st gen - built for Miatas only on an MS1 platform and were PNP into the factory harness for only '90-'93, '94-'95, and '96-'97. The NAs basically. No '99-'00 VICs or '01+ VVT motor was supported.
2nd gen - now built for a number of vehicles from BMWs to Nissans, and of course the Miata. Built off a MS2 platform. Only supports up to '00 though, again no VVT engines are supported.
MS DIY PNP - This is a confusing name, the "DIY" is the key though. It needs to be completely soldered together, but it comes with everything required so that once it's done, it's PNP to your factory harness.
MS2 - A great ECU for some of the more basic Miatas, such as ones without the need for AC control, VVT control, etc.
MS3 - A small step down from MS3x (below)
MS3x - You forgot this one in your list, and it's the latest and greatest, ignoring the water proof MS3-pro, which was built to compete mainly with the $1000+AEM units.
VVT tuner - this is a separate box available from DIYautotune.com for $200, and controls VVT separately from any MS ECU. A second tuning cable, and it's own wiring harness needs to be setup to use this.
Revarant MS - He builds MS2s, enhanced MS2s, MS3s, and I believe enhanced MS3s are still in the prototype phase? Not sure on this. Read his MS comparison chart to get an understanding of what they do, but they're PNP units for '90-'05, most can run VVT, and any number of other inputs and outputs.
As far as your questions, when I decided to turbo my '03 I chose FM because they have a great reputation. After digesting everything I could on their website, I gave them a call and talked about my goals. The Voodoo seemed to fit the bill and the only upgrades I considered at that point were aimed towards longevity and reliability, better clutch, radiator and fans, SS oil lines and wideband. FM never mentioned a problem with VVT engines. Their instructions reference installation on VVT engines so, apparently, they are recommended for it.
I've never had the car dyno'd so I have no idea of how much power it's actually making. FM claims 180 at the wheels so I'm around there or perhaps a little over as I'm at 8psi and have been able to dial back in 2* of timing. The car runs cool, no detonation and has good AFR's with a little room on the Voodoo box to add more fuel ( or more deception )
In spite of the bad rap the Voodoo gets it seems to be a pretty good product. I'm very satisfied.....except it'd be nice to pick up a little more hp since I've gotten used to what I have now.
Thanks again for your input. I almost didn't bother with this forum as it can be a tad hostile to newbies, but I've had nothing but help since I've posted.
Paul
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07-16-2014, 07:06 PM
#13
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Do you have a wideband in the car?
If not, start there...
Understand what it is, what it's doing, how to read it, what it should be and everything about air fuel ratios.
In the meantime continue learning about standalone engine management.
It's not impossible, anything is possible with the right time and care taken.
If not, start there...
Understand what it is, what it's doing, how to read it, what it should be and everything about air fuel ratios.
In the meantime continue learning about standalone engine management.
It's not impossible, anything is possible with the right time and care taken.
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07-16-2014, 08:53 PM
#14
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Do you have a wideband in the car?
If not, start there...
Understand what it is, what it's doing, how to read it, what it should be and everything about air fuel ratios.
In the meantime continue learning about standalone engine management.
It's not impossible, anything is possible with the right time and care taken.
If not, start there...
Understand what it is, what it's doing, how to read it, what it should be and everything about air fuel ratios.
In the meantime continue learning about standalone engine management.
It's not impossible, anything is possible with the right time and care taken.
Thanks ,
Paul
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07-17-2014, 10:21 AM
#17
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Also, we're putting the finishing touches on another MSPNP variant:
MSPNP-Pro: This is an MS3-Pro based MSPNP. The initial release will be for the '01-'05 Miatas (with VVT support) as well as a couple non-Miata applications.
We hope to have them out soon, just have a couple final check-outs before they're released now.
MSPNP-Pro: This is an MS3-Pro based MSPNP. The initial release will be for the '01-'05 Miatas (with VVT support) as well as a couple non-Miata applications.
We hope to have them out soon, just have a couple final check-outs before they're released now.
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07-17-2014, 12:01 PM
#20
Ok, so here's my initial reaction:
First - You need an MS3 Basic or newer/better. Because VVT. Don't waste your time with the vvtuner, its a stupid hack you don't want to deal with. You want onboard VVT control, and of the systems listed so far, everything MS3 based is what you should consider. Forget about diypnp, mspnp, ms1, 2, all tha other stuff.
Second - Get something supported by a reputable vendor. Reverant is awesome. So is DIYautotune. Scott is awesome also (when he's in the mood to be teehee
)
This gets you a solid base map, and plenty of support should you not know what to do with it.
Start reading MSextra and the threads on here. You want to ingest as much ms3 specific info as possible, but a lot of the stuff from ms1/2/etc will apply, such as general VE table, spark table, and other "general" table and tuning info. Lastly, purchase Tuner Studio and Megalogviewer, because well, they are awesome and the #1 thing everyone ever needs with megasquirt.
First - You need an MS3 Basic or newer/better. Because VVT. Don't waste your time with the vvtuner, its a stupid hack you don't want to deal with. You want onboard VVT control, and of the systems listed so far, everything MS3 based is what you should consider. Forget about diypnp, mspnp, ms1, 2, all tha other stuff.
Second - Get something supported by a reputable vendor. Reverant is awesome. So is DIYautotune. Scott is awesome also (when he's in the mood to be teehee
)This gets you a solid base map, and plenty of support should you not know what to do with it.
Start reading MSextra and the threads on here. You want to ingest as much ms3 specific info as possible, but a lot of the stuff from ms1/2/etc will apply, such as general VE table, spark table, and other "general" table and tuning info. Lastly, purchase Tuner Studio and Megalogviewer, because well, they are awesome and the #1 thing everyone ever needs with megasquirt.
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