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Old 01-17-2009, 07:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by barryb View Post
Bullshit. Your reply was a punk-*** adolescent response and georgefury1 was correct to call you on it. You're gonna fail big-time in business if you use that condescending attitude with your customers (or boss or coworkers). Budget authority and/or supervisory rating authority will crush smart-*** snark and wit every time.
It's a good thing I work for myself, then, eh?

Originally Posted by barryb View Post
Bullshit again. "Arbitrary"? How about you pull the data for narrow band O2 sensor voltage vs air/fuel ratio? You're way too loose with your words. A narrow-band O2 sensor, in conjunction with pulling spark plugs and reading them to determine mixture, provides the evaluator enough information to determine quite accurate readings.
No, it doesn't. Spark plug readings are worthless unless you do them properly. If you want to make a pull, run the motor to 7k, and then immediately shut it off, coast to the side of the road, and read the plugs, you will probably get some pretty decent readings. Do it 10 times and compare it to a wideband and I would probably start to give the readings some weight. Until then, they are arbitrary, just like I said they were. I can (and have) tuned 2-stroke motors on spark plug readings.

Originally Posted by barryb View Post
If you wish to say, "A wide-band sensor gives a greater granularity of voltages vs air/fuel mixture than a narrow-band sensor and thus makes it easier to determine the actual mixture at various manifold pressures and rpms without the interpolation of the observer's judgement", say so. Don't make sweeping unsupported statements. You just confuse the newbs.
"Sweeping unsupported statements?" Fine, I'll support them. Narrowband O2 sensors do one thing: tell you whether you are leaner or richer than stoich. That is IT. Any LED display telling you what an O2 sensor is reading tells you that same thing: You are richer or leaner than 14.7:1. If anyone is sitting around confusing new members, it's you: Insinuating that narrowband O2 sensors provide even a modicum of decent forced induction tuning data is misleading, incorrect, and DANGEROUS. Your comment that wideband provide "greater granularity" is hilarious. Yeah, they do provide greater granularity, but it's not like you are comparing a power steering rack to a depowered steering rack, here. It's like you are comparing the ******* Flintstone mobile to a Lotus. Widebands will provide around 5,000 different voltage readings (0 to 5 volts with .001 resolution), with the restriction probably being in the ability to actually interpret the data, since you only have about a thousand points at minimum of actual AFR readings (10 to 20 with .01 resolution). Narrowbands provide TWO voltage readings: 0v and 1v. That's it. So yes, they do have greater granularity, by a factor of five thousand. I stand by my original comment 100%: Narrowbands are ******* useless.

Originally Posted by barryb View Post
"Guessing?" Bullshit again. Reading plugs; works great but is a pain in the ***. Narrow-band sensors; limited utility but easier to provide gross feedback that, when used with reading plugs and using the oil pressure gauge in the 1.6 liter NAs, provides amazingly accurate results. Wide-band; more costly for initial investment but makes up for it in saved labor and more accurate/comprehensive data-logging if your aftermarket ECU supports the wideband datalogging.
Again, reading plugs is stupid and archaic, and if you don't do it right like I described you don't get decent readings anyway. Narrowbands don't have limited utility, they have NONE. ZERO. They are WORTHLESS. The oil pressure gauge comment is a little comical, too; it only picks up serious detonation, and a simple pair of det cans or an amplifier will do so much more for nearly no initial investment.

Originally Posted by barryb View Post
"Real tuners"? "100% blind"? Save me from those who think they know everything...sometimes a little humility goes a long ways. Shops use a wideband because it reduces labor costs and reduces risk due to dyno operator inexperience. Hell, Shiv Pathak never used a wideband nor a knock sensor on "Frankenstein" (may it rest in peace) and still pulled 297 rwhp on a *stock* 1994 1.8 liter engine with only a Warner-Ishi RH5B with the T-bird compressor mod! When you match Shiv Pathak's numbers with the same constraints, I'll grant you the mantle of "Real Tuner". Until then, you get the title of "poseur" ( [poh-zur; Fr. paw-zœr] noun. a person who habitually pretends to be something he is not.)
I'll be very honest with you here. I respect Shiv because I have heard a lot of good things about him. At the same time, I know people who wouldn't let Shiv tune their lawn mower. You can take that as you will, but just because some great person does something doesn't make it ultimately correct. I use a wideband and a knock sensor, and I've been stuffing 13-17psi through a 155,000 mile longblock for 25,000 miles now, and about 22k of that has been on my tuning. I built my own setup, tuned it myself, and I while I don't pretend to be an expert, I know a little bit about what I am talking about, enough to be able to actually read plugs, and I also know how hard it is to learn to do. New members are going to **** their **** up if they attempt to do stupid **** like tune with plugs and a narrowband. It is irresponsible for you to try and convince them that they can.

Originally Posted by barryb View Post
For whatever the **** it's worth since I have virtually zero posts on this site...I've had a Miata since 1991 when I returned from the Saudi Arabian/Iraqi desert with a pocket full of combat pay. I've had forced induction since May of 1995 with one supercharger (Camden. Aarrgghh!) and four BEGI units (Warner-Ishi RH5B System 3 and System 3+ , T28 based FM2 equivalent, and the current custom T3/T04E system). I've used rising-rate fuel pressure regulators with MSD and J&S Safeguard (I dyno'd 189 rwhp on that one), standalone computers on the 1.6 liter with the T28 (219 rwhp dyno'd), and the current system (which I've never dyno'd 'cause I just don't feel like it; I've got more important things to do in my free time). Let's see...13 1/2 years of boost on both 1.6 and 1.8 liter engines, stock ECU and aftermarket ECU, approximately 260,000 miles of boost with ZERO engine failures! That's over 4300 HOURS(!) of run time from sea level to 14,000 feet. I repeat, ZERO engine failures and I've never owned a wide-band (I keep saying I'm gonna buy one).
Have you ever tuned your own car? There are plenty of people who have owned lots of modified cars and never owned a wideband, and I bet you can count on one hand the percentage of them who have tuned their own setups. The people here build AND tune their own setups, and again, you can count on one hand the percentage of us who don't own widebands. Widebands are a PHENOMENALLY useful tool. They make tuning a car idiotproof, and trust me, when you are just starting out, that is exactly what you want and need.

I would also suggest you stop insulting me. In case you didn't notice, the last 5 replies to your post were sarcastic. I am willing to listen to what you have to say, since you seem reasonably knowledgeable, but you aren't the only person here who knows what they are talking about.

Last edited by Savington; 01-17-2009 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 01-19-2009, 11:49 AM   #22
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yes, everyone drop the insults unless they are directed at Shiv.
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