Dyno, new Bell Engineering turbo..
07-30-2014, 08:25 AM
#44
Former Vendor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 271
Total Cats: 11
This thing is the result of trying to make the most hp per psi. It beats the hell out of everything we've run on any dyno in the past. Most of the reasons are obvious, but a few remain a bit obscure.
For example, the NB has gobs more fuel pressure, but remains static regardless of manifold conditions. That's an advantage one way, but not so another. With the delta P across the injector going down as the boost goes up, suggests one has some clear limits with high boost. So, do your best to make power/psi .......
The cast version of the exhaust manifold is almost done. It has a few new twists. One of them is the wastegate positioned to equal access for exh gas flow. I found it easy to resist welding it onto the exhaust housing for a slightly different version of an integral gate.
Rats, I thought alaly tubes would be a great innovation. That they can extend, contract and twist might come a bit closer.
Every piece of this thing is my best shot at flowing air with lower losses. That includes the huge air horn shaped inlet inside the air filter. It also includes the straight inlet.
Why do you suppose I'm out to lunch on IC design? If it's not the most optimum for the circumstances, I'll dissolve it in acid, neutralize it,
flavor it with copious quantities of Tequila and make Margaritas out of it. Drinking them might be a different matter. Take a look at bellintercoolers.com, my secret weapon is Gerhard Schruf.
Agreed, I can't wait to put a 2560 on one of the A/O's.
Come on guys, we had to name it something. After owning five delightful Alfa Romeos,,,, not real close, but what the heck.
If inadequate octane exists in the liberal wastelands, we might be forced to lower the boost. The Texas fracking gas sure is sweet.
corky
For example, the NB has gobs more fuel pressure, but remains static regardless of manifold conditions. That's an advantage one way, but not so another. With the delta P across the injector going down as the boost goes up, suggests one has some clear limits with high boost. So, do your best to make power/psi .......
The cast version of the exhaust manifold is almost done. It has a few new twists. One of them is the wastegate positioned to equal access for exh gas flow. I found it easy to resist welding it onto the exhaust housing for a slightly different version of an integral gate.
Rats, I thought alaly tubes would be a great innovation. That they can extend, contract and twist might come a bit closer.
Every piece of this thing is my best shot at flowing air with lower losses. That includes the huge air horn shaped inlet inside the air filter. It also includes the straight inlet.
Why do you suppose I'm out to lunch on IC design? If it's not the most optimum for the circumstances, I'll dissolve it in acid, neutralize it,
flavor it with copious quantities of Tequila and make Margaritas out of it. Drinking them might be a different matter. Take a look at bellintercoolers.com, my secret weapon is Gerhard Schruf.
Agreed, I can't wait to put a 2560 on one of the A/O's.
Come on guys, we had to name it something. After owning five delightful Alfa Romeos,,,, not real close, but what the heck.
If inadequate octane exists in the liberal wastelands, we might be forced to lower the boost. The Texas fracking gas sure is sweet.
corky
Last edited by Corky Bell; 07-30-2014 at 08:41 AM.
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07-30-2014, 09:27 AM
#45
mkturbo.com
iTrader: (24)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Charleston SC
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This thing is the result of trying to make the most hp per psi. It beats the hell out of everything we've run on any dyno in the past. Most of the reasons are obvious, but a few remain a bit obscure.
For example, the NB has gobs more fuel pressure, but remains static regardless of manifold conditions. That's an advantage one way, but not so another. With the delta P across the injector going down as the boost goes up, suggests one has some clear limits with high boost. So, do your best to make power/psi .......
The cast version of the exhaust manifold is almost done. It has a few new twists. One of them is the wastegate positioned to equal access for exh gas flow. I found it easy to resist welding it onto the exhaust housing for a slightly different version of an integral gate.
Rats, I thought alaly tubes would be a great innovation. That they can extend, contract and twist might come a bit closer.
Every piece of this thing is my best shot at flowing air with lower losses. That includes the huge air horn shaped inlet inside the air filter. It also includes the straight inlet.
Why do you suppose I'm out to lunch on IC design? If it's not the most optimum for the circumstances, I'll dissolve it in acid, neutralize it,
flavor it with copious quantities of Tequila and make Margaritas out of it. Drinking them might be a different matter. Take a look at bellintercoolers.com, my secret weapon is Gerhard Schruf.
Agreed, I can't wait to put a 2560 on one of the A/O's.
Come on guys, we had to name it something. After owning five delightful Alfa Romeos,,,, not real close, but what the heck.
If inadequate octane exists in the liberal wastelands, we might be forced to lower the boost. The Texas fracking gas sure is sweet.
corky
For example, the NB has gobs more fuel pressure, but remains static regardless of manifold conditions. That's an advantage one way, but not so another. With the delta P across the injector going down as the boost goes up, suggests one has some clear limits with high boost. So, do your best to make power/psi .......
The cast version of the exhaust manifold is almost done. It has a few new twists. One of them is the wastegate positioned to equal access for exh gas flow. I found it easy to resist welding it onto the exhaust housing for a slightly different version of an integral gate.
Rats, I thought alaly tubes would be a great innovation. That they can extend, contract and twist might come a bit closer.
Every piece of this thing is my best shot at flowing air with lower losses. That includes the huge air horn shaped inlet inside the air filter. It also includes the straight inlet.
Why do you suppose I'm out to lunch on IC design? If it's not the most optimum for the circumstances, I'll dissolve it in acid, neutralize it,
flavor it with copious quantities of Tequila and make Margaritas out of it. Drinking them might be a different matter. Take a look at bellintercoolers.com, my secret weapon is Gerhard Schruf.
Agreed, I can't wait to put a 2560 on one of the A/O's.
Come on guys, we had to name it something. After owning five delightful Alfa Romeos,,,, not real close, but what the heck.
If inadequate octane exists in the liberal wastelands, we might be forced to lower the boost. The Texas fracking gas sure is sweet.
corky
I think the biggest issue we have with the dyno is you making that much power with the stock NB injectors. It is completely unheard of and the math does not really work out to say that the injectors should be able to support that much fuel in a safe manor.
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07-30-2014, 10:23 AM
#46
Especially when there's no vacuum/boost reference to counteract the pressure on the other end.
At max boost, these things are capable of LESS flow than you started with.
I think if you've discovered a way to run injectors at 200% duty cycle safely, we'd like to hear about it.
At max boost, these things are capable of LESS flow than you started with.
I think if you've discovered a way to run injectors at 200% duty cycle safely, we'd like to hear about it.
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07-30-2014, 10:45 AM
#47
Boost Czar
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Especially when there's no vacuum/boost reference to counteract the pressure on the other end.
At max boost, these things are capable of LESS flow than you started with.
I think if you've discovered a way to run injectors at 200% duty cycle safely, we'd like to hear about it.
At max boost, these things are capable of LESS flow than you started with.
I think if you've discovered a way to run injectors at 200% duty cycle safely, we'd like to hear about it.
they are what 265cc injectors?
okay. well then at ~51psi rail pressure (60psi minus 9psi of boost) they flow around 290cc.
For ~250BHP, and a rail pressure of 51psi and .5 BSFC, you need 4 injectors flowing 300cc at 100%DC to support the power.
if [(HP x BSFC) / (4 x DC)] x 10.5 = cc per injector at 43.5 psi rail pressure
if it goes up to .55 BSFC that number goes to 330cc.
But that's still "close".
Obviously we can see his AFR plot and his power numbers and see it in fact did happen...
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07-30-2014, 11:13 AM
#48
Elite Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,642
Total Cats: 36
For example, the NB has gobs more fuel pressure, but remains static regardless of manifold conditions. That's an advantage one way, but not so another. With the delta P across the injector going down as the boost goes up, suggests one has some clear limits with high boost. So, do your best to make power/psi .......
There's a first time for everything. I am buying some lotto tickets tonight to make the most of this.
Seriously though....
Corky, the best way to shut us up is definitely dyno data with all the trimmings like correction factor. Having said that, AFAIK its not like you have been taking up billboard space with this dyno and trumpeting it as official BEGI numbers for this kit on any car anytime anywhere. Its just one result among many to come, and from a customer, not BEGI.
This actually IMHO pretty cool. Unless there's some serious shenanigans going on with that dyno, those are some pretty awesome numbers for 9psi off a churbo.
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07-30-2014, 11:16 AM
#49
The bench-racing-on-paper math puts them close.
they are what 265cc injectors?
okay. well then at ~51psi rail pressure (60psi minus 9psi of boost) they flow around 290cc.
For ~250BHP, and a rail pressure of 51psi and .5 BSFC, you need 4 injectors flowing 300cc at 100%DC to support the power.
if [(HP x BSFC) / (4 x DC)] x 10.5 = cc per injector at 43.5 psi rail pressure
if it goes up to .55 BSFC that number goes to 330cc.
But that's still "close".
Obviously we can see his AFR plot and his power numbers and see it in fact did happen...
they are what 265cc injectors?
okay. well then at ~51psi rail pressure (60psi minus 9psi of boost) they flow around 290cc.
For ~250BHP, and a rail pressure of 51psi and .5 BSFC, you need 4 injectors flowing 300cc at 100%DC to support the power.
if [(HP x BSFC) / (4 x DC)] x 10.5 = cc per injector at 43.5 psi rail pressure
if it goes up to .55 BSFC that number goes to 330cc.
But that's still "close".
Obviously we can see his AFR plot and his power numbers and see it in fact did happen...
Aren't you also the same guy that likes to tell us that RX8 injectors won't do 250hp?
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07-30-2014, 02:44 PM
#51
....
Rats, I thought alaly tubes would be a great innovation. That they can extend, contract and twist might come a bit closer.
Every piece of this thing is my best shot at flowing air with lower losses. That includes the huge air horn shaped inlet inside the air filter. It also includes the straight inlet.
Why do you suppose I'm out to lunch on IC design? If it's not the most optimum for the circumstances, I'll dissolve it in acid, neutralize it,
flavor it with copious quantities of Tequila and make Margaritas out of it. Drinking them might be a different matter. Take a look at bellintercoolers.com, my secret weapon is Gerhard Schruf.
....
corky
Rats, I thought alaly tubes would be a great innovation. That they can extend, contract and twist might come a bit closer.
Every piece of this thing is my best shot at flowing air with lower losses. That includes the huge air horn shaped inlet inside the air filter. It also includes the straight inlet.
Why do you suppose I'm out to lunch on IC design? If it's not the most optimum for the circumstances, I'll dissolve it in acid, neutralize it,
flavor it with copious quantities of Tequila and make Margaritas out of it. Drinking them might be a different matter. Take a look at bellintercoolers.com, my secret weapon is Gerhard Schruf.
....
corky
Aluminum boost tubes have been de-facto for any quality turbo setup for at least the past decade. The heat radiation is far superior to steel, especially powder coated steel that traps most of its heat in the charge air. It's exactly why you use Aluminum for intercoolers and radiators instead of steel.
I didn't say you were out to lunch on IC design, I said that almost every aftermarket IC is sub-par compared to most OEM designs with regards to internal aerodynamic efficiency. Air doesn't just slam against each row and then lusciously swoosh through a squared off aperture, you have to have a rational air-guide. Here's a tiny insight from the guys at ATM. They weld half-rounds onto each row to reduce the Cd through the core for both charge and ambient airflows. This also allows better radiator cooling as a side effect. Also, the stock R53 MINI Cooper S intercooler has excellent mini velocity stacks for each row for the charge air. No aftermarket IC has yet matched the stock IC for efficiency for that application.
IIRC, you guys build the IC's for Really Light Stuff for the Lotus Exige S application. The IC I had lost a bit of power vs. stock, but stayed much more consistent thanks to its excellent thermal efficiency. There's plenty of room for improvement for aero efficiency, however. The squared off rows hurt aero performance, full stop.
I'm a bit concerned you're choosing to complicate the kit with an external wastegate. For such little power [<300wHP] most Miata turbo's are running, an internal is perfectly acceptable. Why not just run an ATP v-band housing?
Ok, sorry to sound like a condescending ***. I'm just saying there's still room for improvement, primarily with intercooler aerodynamic efficiency.
Cheers,
Ryan
P.S. I'm a big anejo tequila fan too. I have a bottle of Corralejo Anejo that I enjoy in a snifter when the mood strikes.
Last edited by Ryephile; 07-30-2014 at 02:53 PM. Reason: edit: I love anejo tequila too
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07-30-2014, 02:56 PM
#52
First, I'm glad to see you're taking a "1%" look at every facet to make more power at the same boost. That's good stuff.
Aluminum boost tubes have been de-facto for any quality turbo setup for at least the past decade. The heat radiation is far superior to steel, especially powder coated steel that traps most of its heat in the charge air. It's exactly why you use Aluminum for intercoolers and radiators instead of steel.
I didn't say you were out to lunch on IC design, I said that almost every aftermarket IC is sub-par compared to most OEM designs with regards to internal aerodynamic efficiency. Air doesn't just slam against each row and then lusciously swoosh through a squared off aperture, you have to have a rational air-guide. Here's a tiny insight from the guys at ATM. They weld half-rounds onto each row to reduce the Cd through the core for both charge and ambient airflows. This also allows better radiator cooling as a side effect. Also, the stock R53 MINI Cooper S intercooler has excellent mini velocity stacks for each row for the charge air. No aftermarket IC has yet matched the stock IC for efficiency for that application.
IIRC, you guys build the IC's for Really Light Stuff for the Lotus Exige S application. The IC I had lost a bit of power vs. stock, but stayed much more consistent thanks to its excellent thermal efficiency. There's plenty of room for improvement for aero efficiency, however. The squared off rows hurt aero performance, full stop.
I'm a bit concerned you're choosing to complicate the kit with an external wastegate. For such little power [<300wHP] most Miata turbo's are running, an internal is perfectly acceptable. Why not just run an ATP v-band housing?
Ok, sorry to sound like a condescending ***. I'm just saying there's still room for improvement, primarily with intercooler aerodynamic efficiency.
Cheers,
Ryan
P.S. I'm a big anejo tequila fan too. I have a bottle of Corralejo Anejo that I enjoy in a snifter when the mood strikes.
Aluminum boost tubes have been de-facto for any quality turbo setup for at least the past decade. The heat radiation is far superior to steel, especially powder coated steel that traps most of its heat in the charge air. It's exactly why you use Aluminum for intercoolers and radiators instead of steel.
I didn't say you were out to lunch on IC design, I said that almost every aftermarket IC is sub-par compared to most OEM designs with regards to internal aerodynamic efficiency. Air doesn't just slam against each row and then lusciously swoosh through a squared off aperture, you have to have a rational air-guide. Here's a tiny insight from the guys at ATM. They weld half-rounds onto each row to reduce the Cd through the core for both charge and ambient airflows. This also allows better radiator cooling as a side effect. Also, the stock R53 MINI Cooper S intercooler has excellent mini velocity stacks for each row for the charge air. No aftermarket IC has yet matched the stock IC for efficiency for that application.
IIRC, you guys build the IC's for Really Light Stuff for the Lotus Exige S application. The IC I had lost a bit of power vs. stock, but stayed much more consistent thanks to its excellent thermal efficiency. There's plenty of room for improvement for aero efficiency, however. The squared off rows hurt aero performance, full stop.
I'm a bit concerned you're choosing to complicate the kit with an external wastegate. For such little power [<300wHP] most Miata turbo's are running, an internal is perfectly acceptable. Why not just run an ATP v-band housing?
Ok, sorry to sound like a condescending ***. I'm just saying there's still room for improvement, primarily with intercooler aerodynamic efficiency.
Cheers,
Ryan
P.S. I'm a big anejo tequila fan too. I have a bottle of Corralejo Anejo that I enjoy in a snifter when the mood strikes.
and bell intercoolers aren't even bad at all - they've got internal baffles which is already 100% more baffling than the competitors use
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07-30-2014, 03:13 PM
#54
mkturbo.com
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Location: Charleston SC
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I'm a bit concerned you're choosing to complicate the kit with an external wastegate. For such little power [<300wHP] most Miata turbo's are running, an internal is perfectly acceptable. Why not just run an ATP v-band housing?
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07-30-2014, 03:39 PM
#56
Yup. I bought his book, read it cover to cover, and also purchased his products. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. I nut swing on merit, not internet cool points.
Ok, totally fair. I don't have experience with that exact model, so that's a great response. Thanks.
Let's hear it then. I was only bringing up one that's fairly low hanging fruit. "better than the competition" isn't something I really accept as a non-jackwad answer. It's like saying you suck the least. How about shooting for "excellent" instead?
An internal wastegate with a 2560 has not been acceptable for a long time with out boost creep. That is why Begi has been porting the wastegate's for ages to help reduce boost creep. It takes a good amount of manual labor to do that porting, by going to an external gate it is mitigating that problem.
Let's hear it then. I was only bringing up one that's fairly low hanging fruit. "better than the competition" isn't something I really accept as a non-jackwad answer. It's like saying you suck the least. How about shooting for "excellent" instead?
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07-30-2014, 04:08 PM
#57
Their intercoolers use quality cores, with proper fin density and placement, with welded internal baffles distributing air to the whole core instead of just pressurizing it. excellent? are you serious? how many other aftermarket companies do this? and no this is not an OEM manufacturer with a team of engineers and millions to spend on research and development, this is a small mom and pop shop trying to compete with a couple other mom and pop shops.
low hanging fruit? really?
how about lets talk about the turbo now sitting even closer to stuff it can fry? and high up enough that you can't put a heat shield over the top. how about the downpipe now being in an even more awkward location, with more bends, and harder to remove/install? And that's just off the top of my head after glancing at the 2-3 pictures posted of the kit. We've still yet to see teh "whole kit" with a list of components and proper pictures.
How about the fact that this 230whp, if its not inflated on a moon dyno, will likely result in a lot of blown motors when used on ACN 91 or on a bad batch of fuel on a completely and utterly tapped out fuel system and on the edge of safety even on 93oct? There's more too. But we're all just jackwads, so lets talk about ultra important things like intercooler inside aero. I mean, that's super important right?
BEGI hasn't really put out any official word on this, just comments here and there, so I'm not really criticizing them. In fact, I'm kinda happy they're still in the business and still at least attempting to update their inventory/lineup, so kudos to them for that (seriously). But discussing intercooler internal aero when they have some of the better cores on teh market is kinda silly.
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07-30-2014, 04:39 PM
#58
I figured you'd take it personal instead of focusing on the message. Calling me a n00b is about as ironic as it gets, so let's just drop that. I'm not comparing Corky's stuff to eBay specials or a mysterious craigslist find. The bar is already really high. The aerodynamic concepts I'm mentioning don't take millions of R&D, they're solutions already out there, something mom-n-pop shops like BEGI can benefit from.
Ok, you're concerned about downpipe flow, heat management, and a seriously questionable dyno result. I agree with all of that, but like you said, we haven't seen any final product yet.
Corky mentioned we haven't touched on some other things yet. I'm hoping one of them is low boost tube volume, as that's also something rarely focused upon. I'd also like to see a legitimate radiator/Air-con/IC shroud included with the kit instead of draw-your-own hack jobs on the stock shrouds that result in poorer track-day cooling.
I genuinely look forward to seeing and reading more details of this setup in its final form, and I hope it's soon.
Ok, you're concerned about downpipe flow, heat management, and a seriously questionable dyno result. I agree with all of that, but like you said, we haven't seen any final product yet.
Corky mentioned we haven't touched on some other things yet. I'm hoping one of them is low boost tube volume, as that's also something rarely focused upon. I'd also like to see a legitimate radiator/Air-con/IC shroud included with the kit instead of draw-your-own hack jobs on the stock shrouds that result in poorer track-day cooling.
I genuinely look forward to seeing and reading more details of this setup in its final form, and I hope it's soon.
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07-30-2014, 04:44 PM
#59
Show me some aftermarket companies that do what you're talking about in regards to intercooler aero. I'm not comparing to ebay specials, I'm comparing to FM, Precision, Spearco, ETS, etc etc etc. Good intercoolers made by reputable companies.
And yes, like you I'm kinda eager to see the "full breakdown'
And yes, like you I'm kinda eager to see the "full breakdown'
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07-30-2014, 04:53 PM
#60
Who cares about charge pipe volume. Its insignificant. Although people do still use too large of diameter IC piping. I probably have one of the lowest volume miata turbo setups for someone using an off the shelf IC, but it required cutting the hood. 2" diameter IC piping, less than 4 feet total with only ~300° of bend in it. Whats killing my setup is the ebay IC thats I cut up to turn one of the outlets 90° because I didnt feel like paying $800 for a custom one from Bell Intercoolers at the time.
What I'd like to see is people focus on their damn power objective. There's no reason for a tubular T25 flanged manifold to have larger than 1.25 sch40, there's like 1 or two turbos that come in that flange capable of flowing more than 450hp. There's no reason for most miata setups to use larger than 2" IC piping. Bigger isnt better.
What I'd like to see is people focus on their damn power objective. There's no reason for a tubular T25 flanged manifold to have larger than 1.25 sch40, there's like 1 or two turbos that come in that flange capable of flowing more than 450hp. There's no reason for most miata setups to use larger than 2" IC piping. Bigger isnt better.
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