EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning)
09-11-2009, 04:36 PM
#721
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But they have this info:
"No deformation or fatigue under normal loads, long service life.
Chrome Vanadium Spring Steel."
Stephanie
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09-11-2009, 07:21 PM
#722
Make me number 5 but I'm sure there are many more. I'd been putting up with it. I thought having to regularly tighten the mani/turbo, turbo/dp bolts was SOP with aftermarket turbo kits. I have a mani being ceramic coated to help reduce the need for heat sheilding that's in the way of tightening everything.
I'm hoping a better stud material, combined with Bellevilles, will reduce the problem considerably. It doesn't have to eliminate it for me completely to be happy, just knock it back. If I only had to retighten bolts every few track days I'd be fine.
I'm hoping a better stud material, combined with Bellevilles, will reduce the problem considerably. It doesn't have to eliminate it for me completely to be happy, just knock it back. If I only had to retighten bolts every few track days I'd be fine.
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09-12-2009, 02:14 AM
#723
Kudos to you guys for doing it. Certainly not trying to rain on anyone's parade. It just seems that it's not the most likely to work.
For that matter, I mentioned I had my turbo falling off constantly, I'd had studs shoot out and hit the far fender, broken at least 8 studs and lots easily as many nuts. I shared what worked (and continues to work) for me, and I'm glad to see what other people are doing. That said, Travis' set up sounds like it'll cost less and work better in theory, no?
One data point, on the FM-II and compatible manifolds, it'd be fine. Will make it even harder to get it assembled (as it is I rock the motor over on it's mounts with a 4' prybar to get the turbo on) but I think I could just live with it.
Certainly that's a good way to match up CTE...
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09-14-2009, 05:05 PM
#724
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Bellevillesprings.com has force/deflection info
Belleville Washers
M8 washers will deflect to 60% of max, with 700N (150 lb) of clamp force, leaving about 0.17 mm of remaining deflection.
10 ft-lbs of torque on an M8 nut will clamp at about 1800 lbs. That's 12x what would nearly flatten the bellevilles. In addition, the above M8 belleville is 18mm outside diameter.
I don't think bellevilles will work.
Belleville Washers
M8 washers will deflect to 60% of max, with 700N (150 lb) of clamp force, leaving about 0.17 mm of remaining deflection.
10 ft-lbs of torque on an M8 nut will clamp at about 1800 lbs. That's 12x what would nearly flatten the bellevilles. In addition, the above M8 belleville is 18mm outside diameter.
I don't think bellevilles will work.
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09-14-2009, 05:09 PM
#725
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Bellevillesprings.com has force/deflection info
Belleville Washers
M8 washers will deflect to 60% of max, with 700N (150 lb) of clamp force, leaving about 0.17 mm of remaining deflection.
10 ft-lbs of torque on an M8 nut will clamp at about 1800 lbs. That's 12x what would nearly flatten the bellevilles. In addition, the above M8 belleville is 18mm outside diameter.
I don't think bellevilles will work.
Belleville Washers
M8 washers will deflect to 60% of max, with 700N (150 lb) of clamp force, leaving about 0.17 mm of remaining deflection.
10 ft-lbs of torque on an M8 nut will clamp at about 1800 lbs. That's 12x what would nearly flatten the bellevilles. In addition, the above M8 belleville is 18mm outside diameter.
I don't think bellevilles will work.
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09-14-2009, 05:26 PM
#726
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FWIW they have hi temp material which is good to 500 or 700*C, which would have been good enough.
See "heat resistant steel"
http://www.bellevillesprings.com/dis...lications.html
See "heat resistant steel"
http://www.bellevillesprings.com/dis...lications.html
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09-14-2009, 05:36 PM
#727
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Bellevillesprings.com has force/deflection info
Belleville Washers
M8 washers will deflect to 60% of max, with 700N (150 lb) of clamp force, leaving about 0.17 mm of remaining deflection.
10 ft-lbs of torque on an M8 nut will clamp at about 1800 lbs. That's 12x what would nearly flatten the bellevilles. In addition, the above M8 belleville is 18mm outside diameter.
I don't think bellevilles will work.
Belleville Washers
M8 washers will deflect to 60% of max, with 700N (150 lb) of clamp force, leaving about 0.17 mm of remaining deflection.
10 ft-lbs of torque on an M8 nut will clamp at about 1800 lbs. That's 12x what would nearly flatten the bellevilles. In addition, the above M8 belleville is 18mm outside diameter.
I don't think bellevilles will work.
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09-15-2009, 04:39 PM
#729
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So far it looks like we have a few possible solutions that need to be tried:
stud material:
1) 316 SS - 316 is stronger than 304
(spookyfish has tried 304 SS successfully so far, but with nuts tack welded.)
2) Inconel - JKav says it's a known solution - Savington will test (cool!)
3) Boundary Engineering's super special stud material - problem is price and size of group buy needed
All the above materials appear to withstand high temperatures better than the regular stuff - it won't corrode and creep / microyield / crystallize (?) like the regular stuff may be doing.
Although SS has a lower yield strength than regular steel, it has a higher CTE (coefficient of thermal expansion), so as the whole assembly heats up going down the main straight, and (as Boundary's thermal sim shows) its temperature lags the rest, it can lengthen more than regular steel to accomodate flange growth due to temperature rise.
In addition SS has a bit lower Young's Modulus at high temperatures, which means it can stretch to accept more flange "growth", before yielding:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/yo...lus-d_773.html
NUT fixation
1) Torque to 10 ft-lbs so studs can "stretch", and use Resbond to keep them in place - this is what 034 motorsports recommend
2) 034 have some pricey nuts which they think are better than most - perhaps they have good hi temp capability
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
3) safety wire
Others:
1) through bolts so that the length of shank that stretches to accomodate flange growth due to temperature is longer
2) spacer flange between mani and turbo for the same reason
stud material:
1) 316 SS - 316 is stronger than 304
(spookyfish has tried 304 SS successfully so far, but with nuts tack welded.)
2) Inconel - JKav says it's a known solution - Savington will test (cool!)
3) Boundary Engineering's super special stud material - problem is price and size of group buy needed
All the above materials appear to withstand high temperatures better than the regular stuff - it won't corrode and creep / microyield / crystallize (?) like the regular stuff may be doing.
Although SS has a lower yield strength than regular steel, it has a higher CTE (coefficient of thermal expansion), so as the whole assembly heats up going down the main straight, and (as Boundary's thermal sim shows) its temperature lags the rest, it can lengthen more than regular steel to accomodate flange growth due to temperature rise.
In addition SS has a bit lower Young's Modulus at high temperatures, which means it can stretch to accept more flange "growth", before yielding:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/yo...lus-d_773.html
NUT fixation
1) Torque to 10 ft-lbs so studs can "stretch", and use Resbond to keep them in place - this is what 034 motorsports recommend
2) 034 have some pricey nuts which they think are better than most - perhaps they have good hi temp capability
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
3) safety wire
Others:
1) through bolts so that the length of shank that stretches to accomodate flange growth due to temperature is longer
2) spacer flange between mani and turbo for the same reason
Last edited by JasonC SBB; 09-16-2009 at 11:57 AM.
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09-15-2009, 05:43 PM
#731
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Glad someone did a summary, and I agree with most of it IIRC, but...
A lower Young's Modulus than what? Any steel, be it 304 SS, 316 SS, mild steel, A286, whatever, has a Young's Modulus (also known as Modulus of Elasticity) of about 30 ksi, with minor variations, say +/- 5%. The main thing that varies between alloys and heat treats is the yield strength, the ductility, and the ultimate strength.
At least you did not use that "stretchiness" term
At least you did not use that "stretchiness" term
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09-15-2009, 10:08 PM
#732
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2) 034 have some pricey nuts which they think are better than most - perhaps they have good hi temp capability
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
"Available in steel (450?F maximum temperature) and stainless (900?F maximum temperature)."
I notice they don't have stainless listed on the site for easy ordering. Might take awhile to special order.
I've requested the catalog to get their tightening recommendations.
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09-15-2009, 10:30 PM
#733
NUT fixation
1) Torque to 10 ft-lbs so studs can "stretch", and use Resbond to keep them in place - this is what 034 motorsports recommend
2) 034 have some pricey nuts which they think are better than most - perhaps they have good hi temp capability
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
1) Torque to 10 ft-lbs so studs can "stretch", and use Resbond to keep them in place - this is what 034 motorsports recommend
2) 034 have some pricey nuts which they think are better than most - perhaps they have good hi temp capability
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
The nuts themselves are a one-time use item as locknuts. I pulled the DP and turbo while replacing the transmission so I had to remove the nuts. The small wrench size makes them way easier to install than a standard nut. But after removing and reinstalling they go back on significantly easier therefore the locking effect is pretty much gone. I put them back on with resbond so I'll find out shortly whether resbond alone will work or not.
I'd recommend these nuts for the ease of installation alone.
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09-15-2009, 10:34 PM
#734
That looks like a moly-coated steel Jet Nut, which is also available from Coast Fabrication for a little less money, and in both M10 pitches if you back up a level.
"Available in steel (450?F maximum temperature) and stainless (900?F maximum temperature)."
I notice they don't have stainless listed on the site for easy ordering. Might take awhile to special order.
I've requested the catalog to get their tightening recommendations.
"Available in steel (450?F maximum temperature) and stainless (900?F maximum temperature)."
I notice they don't have stainless listed on the site for easy ordering. Might take awhile to special order.
I've requested the catalog to get their tightening recommendations.
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09-16-2009, 03:15 AM
#738
2) 034 have some pricey nuts which they think are better than most - perhaps they have good hi temp capability
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
Aircraft Quality Turbo Lock Nut, M8 x 1.25 - 034 MOTORSPORT They recommend 10 ft-lbs + Resbond.
From their pictures, their nuts don't have the triangular pattern I've seen on most of the locknuts. That's why I find them interesting. Also, a flat finish on the bottom. Are you sure it's the same nut?
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