EPIC nuts/studs loosening thread (reposting stupid stuff without reading = warning)
09-02-2009, 05:47 PM
#646
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My 304-magic stainless bolts and welded nuts as still on and counting: two track days/tracks, well below SM track record and 600 Autobahn kms (200kmh cruise). I'd say we have a winner here.
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09-02-2009, 08:22 PM
#650
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The problem, as we currently understand it, is stretching of the stud due to thermal expansion of the flange (ie: creep), and the solution you're proposing is to add more preload?
I'm liking the Belleville solution a lot. Couple those with Travis' studs made from cold-rolled ridiculum, and I'm guessing we have a winner.
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09-02-2009, 08:23 PM
#651
What manifold is that?
I'm curious about my large, mild studs. I took them out for some unrelated work... And three of the nuts took the studs with them. Putting it back together tonight, will see how it holds up after much use and an assembly/dissassembly cycle. I should use a new nut on the one which came off, but... I won't. :-)
I'm curious about my large, mild studs. I took them out for some unrelated work... And three of the nuts took the studs with them. Putting it back together tonight, will see how it holds up after much use and an assembly/dissassembly cycle. I should use a new nut on the one which came off, but... I won't. :-)
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09-02-2009, 08:24 PM
#652
But they DO give more, supposedly, to act as a bit of a spring. It's in their literature. They are not meant to be stronger, they are meant to make sure the studs are only in tension and to be springy.
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09-02-2009, 11:34 PM
#653
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Mostly, I just think they are cool. And the idea of having a series of 2mm bolts is entertaining to me.
But they DO give more, supposedly, to act as a bit of a spring. It's in their literature. They are not meant to be stronger, they are meant to make sure the studs are only in tension and to be springy.
But they DO give more, supposedly, to act as a bit of a spring. It's in their literature. They are not meant to be stronger, they are meant to make sure the studs are only in tension and to be springy.
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09-03-2009, 12:40 AM
#654
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Has anybody tried using an OE Nissan gasket and Sixshooter's Caterpillar studs from back on post #441 and torquing it to spec?
(My prediction is that it's definitely too simple - it couldn't possibly work.)
(My prediction is that it's definitely too simple - it couldn't possibly work.)
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09-03-2009, 03:31 AM
#656
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******* hell, does anyone READ or does everyone just want to be a idea champion by finding the next ridiculous solution to a different problem that ours?
The flanges arent expending that much and THAT isnt making the studs stretch. It is a material issue. The metal is crystallizing due to heat (cycling). THAT is why AbeFMs stud comes our with the nut. They look black and burned dont they?
A special 304 stainless (need to figure our what Ive got actually) with flange nuts and some resbond or tack welds will do the trick. I drive much faster than last year and the turbo is so leak free where it was not.
The flanges arent expending that much and THAT isnt making the studs stretch. It is a material issue. The metal is crystallizing due to heat (cycling). THAT is why AbeFMs stud comes our with the nut. They look black and burned dont they?
A special 304 stainless (need to figure our what Ive got actually) with flange nuts and some resbond or tack welds will do the trick. I drive much faster than last year and the turbo is so leak free where it was not.
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09-03-2009, 03:57 AM
#657
******* hell, does anyone READ or does everyone just want to be a idea champion by finding the next ridiculous solution to a different problem that ours?
The flanges arent expending that much and THAT isnt making the studs stretch. It is a material issue. The metal is crystallizing due to heat (cycling). THAT is why AbeFMs stud comes our with the nut. They look black and burned dont they?
A special 304 stainless (need to figure our what Ive got actually) with flange nuts and some resbond or tack welds will do the trick. I drive much faster than last year and the turbo is so leak free where it was not.
The flanges arent expending that much and THAT isnt making the studs stretch. It is a material issue. The metal is crystallizing due to heat (cycling). THAT is why AbeFMs stud comes our with the nut. They look black and burned dont they?
A special 304 stainless (need to figure our what Ive got actually) with flange nuts and some resbond or tack welds will do the trick. I drive much faster than last year and the turbo is so leak free where it was not.
How much do you think you need to stretch a stud to increase the tension significantly - and I mean... hundreds if not thousands of pounds of force. A few thousandths of a inch is important here - hence the trying to match materials. With the smaller studs, it was always the same game - tight enough not loosen was tight enough to break in short order.
That said, if what you are doing is working, I'm not going to bad mouth it. How much torque before welding?
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09-03-2009, 11:32 PM
#658
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I have read the whole thread.
The gasket question was asked a long time ago, but really only answered with "My BEGI kit didn't come with one"...therefore it must not be needed.
I'll just point out that grade 5 and grade 8 do not apply to metric hardware. Carroll Smith had some choice comments regarding them, in any case. Yes, I even read things outside of internet forums. Stephanie says the rest here:
I've worked with modified cars my entire adult life, and never seen this problem on any widespread basis. I have trouble believing that Miatas operate in some sort of singularity in the time-space continuum where what works for everyone else won't work for them. I'm not trying to come up with crazy new moon-shot ideas. I'm actually working in the opposite direction. And I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that it's been done.
I'm just proposing that someone use a gasket that has been proven to work for other cars using the same turbo with a cast iron manifold, use quality fasteners of trustworthy origin, and install them according to the manufacturer's recommendations. I've searched this thread for "gasket" repeatedly, and not found a post where that's been shown to not work.
My turbo will be installed with OE gaskets, JIS flange bolts, OE Toyota studs where applicable and OE Toyota lock nuts, with a decent grade of anti-seize applied. The thread is M10x1.25, so it won't work on Corky's M10 spec, but anyone still working with M8x1.25 could drill and retap to give the Toyota stuff a shot. Cat is M10x1.5 per the post mentioned above, hence my specific suggestion of its use.
The gasket question was asked a long time ago, but really only answered with "My BEGI kit didn't come with one"...therefore it must not be needed.
I'll just point out that grade 5 and grade 8 do not apply to metric hardware. Carroll Smith had some choice comments regarding them, in any case. Yes, I even read things outside of internet forums. Stephanie says the rest here:
8mm studs do not last that long even for street use. Been there, done that, and learned that lesson. We have been using 10 mm studs for a few years now. The only people that have problems with the 10 mm studs are the racers. That could very well be because we were shipping grade 5 studs instead of grade 8 studs. That problem is fixed now though. The grade 5 studs got thrown in the garbage and the grade 8 studs are shipping with ALL the turbo kits and manifolds. However, they still seem to have a stud stretching problem. Corky's investigation continues.
I've worked with modified cars my entire adult life, and never seen this problem on any widespread basis. I have trouble believing that Miatas operate in some sort of singularity in the time-space continuum where what works for everyone else won't work for them. I'm not trying to come up with crazy new moon-shot ideas. I'm actually working in the opposite direction. And I haven't seen any evidence in this thread that it's been done.
I'm just proposing that someone use a gasket that has been proven to work for other cars using the same turbo with a cast iron manifold, use quality fasteners of trustworthy origin, and install them according to the manufacturer's recommendations. I've searched this thread for "gasket" repeatedly, and not found a post where that's been shown to not work.
My turbo will be installed with OE gaskets, JIS flange bolts, OE Toyota studs where applicable and OE Toyota lock nuts, with a decent grade of anti-seize applied. The thread is M10x1.25, so it won't work on Corky's M10 spec, but anyone still working with M8x1.25 could drill and retap to give the Toyota stuff a shot. Cat is M10x1.5 per the post mentioned above, hence my specific suggestion of its use.
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09-04-2009, 01:36 AM
#659
Quite the accomplishment. :-)
The FM people have said a few times (and I've asked and asked again) that gaskets prevent some leaks, but blow out and otherwise mess up often enough that they cause as many troubles as they cure. That's not to say not to try it. Certainly having something with some real give in it would help quite a bit - though something 0.020" thick, even giving 50% is only 0.010".
Big yes, I'm with them on this one - I got me some reasonably good, non-cast, 10MM studs and quality lock nuts and went from braking parts all the time to having that be the only reliable joint on the car (save for a v-band on the downpipe) on a year-long timescale.
The gasket question was asked a long time ago, but really only answered with "My BEGI kit didn't come with one"...therefore it must not be needed.
Big yes, I'm with them on this one - I got me some reasonably good, non-cast, 10MM studs and quality lock nuts and went from braking parts all the time to having that be the only reliable joint on the car (save for a v-band on the downpipe) on a year-long timescale.
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09-04-2009, 09:32 AM
#660
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I thought the composite gaskets were the ones blowing out/burning out, but the stamped metal ones would not. And the stamped metal ones have a slight ability to absorb flange expansion without overtaxing the studs (sorry Spooky, but I'm not 100% convinced that crystalizing studs is the only problem).
And not all stamped gaskets are the same. From one seller:
Somebody's using lots of gaskets judging by how many are for sale online. Everybody with a cast mani but us uses them, because BEGi said so, and we are the only guys having across the board problems. I'm not professing to be a genius, but that's one hell of a strange coincidence. Bell was wrong on the studs on both size and material. Was he wrong about the gaskets? Just throwing that out there. Food for thought. Garrett uses gaskets with cast manifolds. Mitsubishi, Holset, Toyota, IHI, Switzer/Borg Warner all use gaskets with cast manifolds. And strangely enough, they don't need to use $80 stud sets made of 99.6% pure ridiculum, mined by 70 year old vestal virgins in the remote highlands of Borneo. Who has a larger R&D department? Who has torture tested more units to the failure point in a laboratory environment?
I'm serious about finding the truth, just like most of you. I'm trying to ask logical, thoughtful questions, and not pick on anybody...
...except Caterpillar. Some of Cat's machines are the biggest hunks of crap on the market compared to other brands. Some of their engines are good and some suck absolute ***. They get by on their marketing image and history. Much of their modern stuff is cheap and light-duty compared to the past. But I digress badly...
And not all stamped gaskets are the same. From one seller:
T3 Inlet Gasket for all T3 style inlet flanged turbos. Available in a STD or thicker stainless steel version for those of you running big boost!
I'm serious about finding the truth, just like most of you. I'm trying to ask logical, thoughtful questions, and not pick on anybody...
...except Caterpillar. Some of Cat's machines are the biggest hunks of crap on the market compared to other brands. Some of their engines are good and some suck absolute ***. They get by on their marketing image and history. Much of their modern stuff is cheap and light-duty compared to the past. But I digress badly...
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