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Race Prep Miata race-only chat. 949 Racing - Rim & tires

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Old 01-07-2016, 10:53 AM   #561
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Why slow the miata down, why not make the other cars faster?

I don't do PT, mainly because I haven't pulled the trigger on a cage for my "street" NB, but TTE has been pretty healthy with Southeast. It has a mix of cars that fight for the lead(Sentra,E30,miata,etc). Looking forward to this year.
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:02 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by flier129 View Post
Why slow the miata down, why not make the other cars faster?
Many currently competitive PTE cars would be 100% useless if you attempted to make them 'faster' with even more hp (either because of breaking things more frequently such as axles or unable to put the power down like with a FWD Sentra as an example)

If you want to go faster in your Miata by making it lighter with more HP, why not just move up to TTD/PTD like many others have done/are doing?
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Old 01-07-2016, 11:21 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by chris101 View Post
Many currently competitive PTE cars would be 100% useless if you attempted to make them 'faster' with even more hp (either because of breaking things more frequently such as axles or unable to put the power down like with a FWD Sentra as an example)

If you want to go faster in your Miata by making it lighter with more HP, why not just move up to TTD/PTD like many others have done/are doing?
I didn't realize some cars would have reliability issues like that at PTE/TTE speeds.

PTD could definitely be an option for me personally, since there's a healthy field in SE. TTD, however, wouldn't be much fun since the numbers seem to be pretty low the past two seasons.

This year's rules didn't affect me much since I'm a points car.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:03 PM   #564
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With the most recent lbs/hp addition, are many people thinking of just moving to PTD?
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:18 PM   #565
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Funny thing is...ever since you guys developed these all dominating PT miatas NASA PT involvement #s have dropped more and more and more.

The last time I raced at NASA Nationals, PTE had a pretty healthy field. A fairly diverse field; miatas, SE-Rs, FB rx-7s, old civics, etc. The last few years...not so much.

Yes, more money has been spent developing the Miata in PT then any other platform. More money has probably been spent racing the miata in any class, in any organization, in any country, ever. I guess that's what happens when you're the "Most Road Raced Car" ever. Now a "Joe Schmoe" can copy any number of Miata formulas and be pretty competitive in PTE, PTD, and PTC.

Does PT seem better off for it?


Now NASA/Greg is forced to slow down Miatas to try to increase participation from other marques, and stem the tide from ST4/ST5/ST6?


Here's the bed you've made? Enjoy it???
You must really despise me, to follow me around this forum, rather desperately trolling the way you do. I feel kinda sorry for you, being so emotionally invested in some stranger. I guess that's what the interweb is for.

Anyway, PT had tiny fields when we started here and it's still tiny fields. NASA couldn't fill a single national championship with all classes. Even after they split to East/West, most PT classes still didn't have enough entries for any contingencies. It would be a bit of a stretch to equate me building a few fast PTE cars to the entire PT fields demise. But go ahead, take your informal perception of field sizes, draw an erroneous conclusion, pin it on me and shove it in my face. Like I said, I feel sorry for you. SO, friends, coworkers all have to put up with that.

In any case, NASA, or more specifically Greg see the folly in trying to regulate so many cars in so many PT classes. Thus, the far simpler ST structure that's on deck. A lot of grumbling but I think its the right direction.

Oh and yes, I sell a metric **** ton of parts to PT racers and HPDE guys based on our race history and knowledge. I haven't raced with NASA for several years, started my own race series. So, yes I enjoy it very muchly.
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Old 01-07-2016, 02:17 PM   #566
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Blah blah bla
Obviously pinning a nationwide reduction of PT fields on you is silly trolling for the sake of trolling (not to mention giving you entirely too much credit).

There is however a pretty strong correlation between the beginning of your participation at NASA Nationals and the decline in PT fields at Nationals. Of course as we know, correlation is not causation...

Like I said, the last (and only) year I raced NASA Natationals (2011) the PT fields were pretty strong. If I remember correctly, there were enough cars in each class (B through F) to pay contingencies. In 2012 you did your first NASA Nats (I think?) and the numbers have been going down ever since.


Honestly I haven't paid much attention recently and maybe going to STx is the best path.

Serious question though, and this is for anyone, would PT have been better off if Miatas were specifically NOT allowed. Let's say in 2006 NASA would have made a rule change and kicked the Miata out of PT altogether. Would PT have benefited from people who race other marques participating instead of avoiding PT because the only affordable way to win was in a Miata? Would it have died years ago?


I expect the continual adjustment of the NA/NB to continue into the ST4/5/6 days. I think Greg will continue to try to slow the Miata down in the interest of parity.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:00 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
There is however a pretty strong correlation between the beginning of your participation at NASA Nationals and the decline in PT fields at Nationals. Of course as we know, correlation is not causation...

Like I said, the last (and only) year I raced NASA Natationals (2011) the PT fields were pretty strong. If I remember correctly, there were enough cars in each class (B through F) to pay contingencies. In 2012 you did your first NASA Nats (I think?) and the numbers have been going down ever since.
Then why postulate the connection three times on the same page? Oh yes, because sad troll.

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Old 01-07-2016, 03:49 PM   #568
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Don't forget the upswing in the relaxed rules style of series like Lucky Dog, WRL, Lemons, Chumpcar (barely counts at this point), AER. I don't think they've stolen a lot of racers away from NASA, but they have certainly caused people to not build new cars for NASA.
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Old 01-07-2016, 06:24 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
Like I said, the last (and only) year I raced NASA Natationals (2011) the PT fields were pretty strong. If I remember correctly, there were enough cars in each class (B through F) to pay contingencies. In 2012 you did your first NASA Nats (I think?) and the numbers have been going down ever since.

Serious question though, and this is for anyone, would PT have been better off if Miatas were specifically NOT allowed. Let's say in 2006 NASA would have made a rule change and kicked the Miata out of PT altogether. Would PT have benefited from people who race other marques participating instead of avoiding PT because the only affordable way to win was in a Miata? Would it have died years ago?


I expect the continual adjustment of the NA/NB to continue into the ST4/5/6 days. I think Greg will continue to try to slow the Miata down in the interest of parity.
Look at the big picture. Claiming one person contributed that largely to the decline of NASA racing because they participated in what, THREE classes, out of the 60+ classes that NASA offers, is asinine.

PT would be significantly less populated if the Miata were not allowed. Look at the progression of how most people get into race group, they have a car, they start HPDE, they invest time and money in the car to make it faster, safer, more reliable, and mostly don't have any end game with the car besides "I like to drive on track". Then things get more serious and they want to move to a competition group. What do you honestly think would happen at this point? They sell their car after years effort put into it and thousands of dollars to buy something else to drive? **** no. The much more likely scenario is that they find some other organization to race with that has a decent turnout and aren't Miata ****'s.

Besides, if the Miata weren't allowed, there would be some other hot ticket car to take its place I'm sure, and with that, you haven't solved a damn thing.

And as for ST4/5/6, the current proposal is that only ST5/6 are going to have vehicle specific mod factors, so I suggest hitting the national forums so you have a bit more background information on this.

Last edited by Arca_ex; 01-07-2016 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 01-07-2016, 07:29 PM   #570
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In the end, it's racing, people will deal with it.

Over the two years I've been around NASA I feel like it's actually grown. That might be my perspective here in SE, though. I've also noticed not much of additional bodies to help the additional work that has come with the growth, I believe that's true on a national stand-point.

I know this is very SCCA of me to say, but why not like have a...... committee managing the rule-set, classing, re-classing, etc instead of just one over-worked guy? Lol.
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:13 PM   #571
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Don't forget the upswing in the relaxed rules style of series like Lucky Dog, WRL, Lemons, Chumpcar (barely counts at this point), AER. I don't think they've stolen a lot of racers away from NASA, but they have certainly caused people to not build new cars for NASA.
Bingo.

I can think of one friend in particular who has built his Miata for WRL. We haven't discussed it at length, but he probably has $20k+ in his already, wouldn't be competitive nationally in PT or SCCA, but he can go out and do a LONG race and be competitive not only in his class but also for an overall win.

**** I had north of $10k in 1.6 HPDE car, and that was all mainly in XIDA BGK, brakes, other suspension goodies, safety.
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Old 01-07-2016, 10:19 PM   #572
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After looking at the rules for chump, I have very little interest in it. I can see how it can be a little different for a miata where you don't have to worry about removing glass except from a hardtop (and at that point I'd run without a hardtop or find one without glass for cheaper) BUT I just have no interest in taking my NASA 4 door car and removing all the glass in 4 doors and the rear with currently working defrost. Heck, we still drive too/from the track with that car too as it is plated, titled, insured with working power windows and functional cruise control! Their 'no glass' rule is just too much for my personal interest. (makes open outside storage and open trailer transport a no-no for us thus changing too much with logistics)
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:36 AM   #573
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Replacing all glass with Lexan is legal and "free" in Chumpcar, has been since early 2015.

The car I built for Chump has an OEM glass windshield, Lexan rear and quarter windows, and OEM door glass that I can install for transportation and/or leaving outdoors at night. The Lexan windows are sealed and mostly weatherproof.

The "no glass" cars/rules are a thing of the past.


I was going to post that I believe the biggest reason for the reduction in PT fields the last five years is the proliferation of "affordable" enduro series, but getting Emilio's blood boiling was too appealing. A lot of the east coast Chumpcar builds I've seen in the last two years are basically PT builds, but people would rather race them in Chumpcar against 50+ cars then a NASA race with two or three other cars in class.
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Old 01-08-2016, 10:39 AM   #574
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^ yes, I was talking about glass removal from the 4 doors and rear (taking away my defrost).. its not what we want to do. (and is obviously NOT a NASA requirement)

I've also seen how 'wrecked' chump cars get (seems very much the norm to get crash damage -- even more so than a typical SCCA spec miata race!) so its a no thanks (plus I like the sprint races and just don't have the burning desire to find 3 teammates and drive for 2 to 3 hour stints (just not my thing)
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Old 01-08-2016, 11:04 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
I was going to post that I believe the biggest reason for the reduction in PT fields the last five years is the proliferation of "affordable" enduro series, but getting Emilio's blood boiling was too appealing.
it plays nice or it's gonna have a bad time
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Old 01-13-2016, 10:03 AM   #576
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Back to the fun here...

Heading down to Roebling next weekend in a decent sized field, 6-7 in TTE. I have some sticker R7s coming in this week, and I'm ******* excited!

This is my first time at RR and it will be my first time with hoosiers on track, I'm not sure how much my auto-x experience with hoosiers will translate over to the track. I do plan on using my RS3s for the first two sessions on day 1, just to get a decent grasp on the track. Any tips on breaking in the R7s in the miata? Don't slide, don't spin, do 4 laps come in, let them drop to ambient temp?
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Old 01-13-2016, 12:01 PM   #577
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Don't slide, don't spin, do 4 laps come in, let them drop to ambient temp?
Basically, yes. They won't be faster but they will last longer before they cycle out. They'll also drop off slower so a gentle heat cycle is best. If you don't care how long they last, use laps 2-4 for qual. I have not run the R7's yet but I understand they still have a few magic laps fresh off the stickers.

They'll stop a good half g harder than the RS3's. Otherwise, Hoosier DOT's are very easy to drive, tolerate slip angle (slopppy driving) but are fastest when driven clean with small slip angles. They also come back very quickly if you momentarily push too hard and overheat them a tad, unlike a street tire that needs a very slow lap to come back to full grip.

Entry speed brah
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:20 PM   #578
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So dont bother with the 24 hour cure period? Track season approaching and would like to go HAM on the new Hoosiers for at least a session, dumb idea?
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Old 01-13-2016, 01:28 PM   #579
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So dont bother with the 24 hour cure period?
24hrs is best. Inconvenient but the cycle life will increase. Same number of cycles but the slope of grip vs hours is shallower if they have been heat cycled properly. Something I never checked was comparing doing qual on stickers then seeing how many hours they lasted vs a gentle heat cycle then measuring hours. Usually we ran Hoosiers for sprint racing so it was invariably 4 cycles, just. 5th cycle was always slower whether it cam at 45 minutes or 2 hrs.

On the few occasions we ran SM6 Hoosiers for enduro, we scuffed/cycled each set carefully a few days ahead. We the then ran them for 3-4hrs straight and removed them from service after that. The good ones got used for practice but that's effectively one mini heat cycle and one long one. So 2 heat cycles then done. The difference of course is that we ran them for 3-4hrs. We found they stayed pretty fast but definitely fell off a tad after 2hrs. Once they came off the car after that long stint, the 3rd cycle was well off pace.

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Old 01-13-2016, 03:19 PM   #580
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Awesome, thanks for the info Emilio! The vendor I bought the hoosiers from did say in a perfect world you would use the 24hr cure method, but ain't nobody got time for that.

For those of you that have never seen Roebling, it's quite a bit of a momentum course or so I'm told(sure looks like it). Here's a friend of mine's fastest session, which also happens to be the current TTE record there:


I'm in it to beat him
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