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Race Prep Miata race-only chat. 949 Racing - Rim & tires

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Old 12-18-2013, 08:21 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
This does kind of suck.

Since I'm swapping a VVT into a 1.6 car, I have no option but to dyno reclass. I can't imagine being able to build a points 1.6 motor that could compete, even with the substantially lower weight.
Yup. Since there is no penalty for displacement as there is in SCCA, there is no reason not build a 1.8.

It's a bit of shame that Greg is backed into this but it's not his doing. Miatas are cheap and are easy to make fast. Thus, they get the most development and go fastest. Pisses off all the drivers in other cars. Also a bit embarrassing for NASA when almost every PT class is mocked by 10 year old Miatas. Gotta do something.

Honestly, if I were in Greg's shoes looking at the big picture, I'd give the Miatas more weight too.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:44 PM   #142
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Yes, Emilio is spot on there.

The probability of a particular car make/model winning races is a function of:
-the percentage of the cars competing with that make/model
-the prep level of those cars
-the favorability of the classing of the make/model

...thus miata's win a lot. Primarily because of the first two, in my opinion.


I've only raced against a few non-miata PTE cars that were well-prepped and they were more than capable. They probably have more potential than the miata. Certainly they have significantly better power to weight, and even more so now.

Oh well! All of us miata racers will just have to take it as a compliment for a job well done
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:06 PM   #143
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I ain't skerred
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:09 PM   #144
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I don't know of a 1.6L B series Mazda with VVT. Engine code, applications, production years?
Brain fart on my part. I was thinking the Z family wasn't a separate engine family, and was actually offered in a Miata at some time as an evolved B motor.

Mazda Z engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also recall a thread on here about someone doing or theory crafting a Z head frankenbuild. But that would require a reclass anyways, moot point.

My car is too far gone to revert to a points car. Cheaper to start over. Oh well.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:16 PM   #145
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Miatas are cheap and are easy to make fast. Thus, they get the most development and go fastest.
Sidebar.
Is there really not a honda/neon/e30/whatever platform alternative to 949/track speed/etc?

Is it a fuction of how openly the Miata community shares info? Not just on here about nasa pt, but also on grassroots, mnet, etc for solo and whatnot?
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:29 PM   #146
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Sidebar.
Is there really not a honda/neon/e30/whatever platform alternative to 949/track speed/etc?

Is it a fuction of how openly the Miata community shares info? Not just on here about nasa pt, but also on grassroots, mnet, etc for solo and whatnot?
I can only speculate. Clearly the Miata makes best use of its contact patches than anything this side of an Exige. I think there are a few other platforms that have equal or greater PT potential.

The F body Camaro that vaporized the B lap records at Miller this year is a good case in point.

The 86 twins are not fully developed yet, definitely sleepers.

There are a few old school cars with weird mixes of big engine, light weight or some quixotic combination of go fast potential. A 160whp B13 Sentra SE-R (SR20, factory LSD, quick ratio steering) might be really competitive. Datsun 2000 roadster. First gen Neon. 1st gen Saturn's make 150whp without working hard and are un believably light (plastic body) and handle really well.

The NA/NB Miatas are actually a bit like the 911 in the sense that so many are raced that it ends up being a hyper developed platform. Skews perception to outsiders. The difference is we Miata drivers know they're merely well balanced little sports cars. Porsche guys will spend hours arguing that hanging a 400lb engine off the rear bumper is the best way to build a sports car.

No way the B13 Sentra ever got a fraction of the love the NA from the same era received.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:42 PM   #147
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Early 90s civics and integras have tons of potential too, and all the ones I've driven on track were a blast. Tons of potential for dyno reclassing, since there are multiple 2.0L or bigger options that drop right in. After all the headache I've had trying to get my fat *** comfortable in a caged miata, I wish I'd started with a 95ish Integra RS.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:04 PM   #148
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A dyno reclass isn't "noncompetitive". I think Rover was a PTE dyno reclass when it ran at nationals before it broke.

A dyno reclass is probably more fun anyway. You get to do what you want engine/exhaust wise.

Funny though, as I have been a big supporter for being a PTE points car in my group of friendz.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:20 PM   #149
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Just to back Emilio up on his speculation, most of the Mid-Atlantic PTE stuff is a B13 Sentra SE-R.

I think another contender for PTE might be the 2nd generation Integra if somebody goes out and builds one.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:26 PM   #150
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Just to back Emilio up on his speculation, most of the Mid-Atlantic PTE stuff is a B13 Sentra SE-R.

I think another contender for PTE might be the 2nd generation Integra if somebody goes out and builds one.
I guess it would depend on your region and how popular Honda Challenge is. It would be nice for car counts if NASA killed Honda Challenge and sent those cars into PT.

I've been preaching the points route for years but I've never been a good enough driver to prove I was right.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:00 PM   #151
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I've been preaching the points route for years but I've never been a good enough driver to prove I was right.
You were right boss.

It took nearly three years of fiddling for our shop to both recognize and get the speed out of a points build. Once we did, we were able to capitalize on the lbs/hp advantage over a dyno classed car. If you had asked me how to build your points car three years ago, I would have given you the wrong answer. Way wrong.

As of now, we no longer have one sitting in the shop. Just the blueprint in my head. Every car on the team having been converted over to SuperMiata specification.

I would like to see someone duplicate the way Super was set up for nationals and take it to Sonoma Champs. Gawd it was fast. I offered it to William for Miller but he decided to take Nemo (his much prettier but slightly slower car) instead. He had it sewn up but the Rebello motor that he specifically requested get forged rods and heavy duty valve springs.. didn't. Boom.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #152
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Off topic:
Running a SuperMiata competition on the east coast would be fun. We got plenty of miatas around, but I am not sure how we would go about piggy back with a club for track time. I don't see how we could do it without HPDE/club support otherwise. Weekend track rentals are expensiiivve!

I think in 2015, I will run east coast nationals at RA. its scary, not exactly the best track for you to run your own car (nor does it particularly favor miatas), but it will be a blast I think. I doubt I will be competitive either way, but I think the environment will be a good learning experience.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:30 PM   #153
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Sidebar.
Is there really not a honda/neon/e30/whatever platform alternative to 949/track speed/etc?
A friend and I were going to build a F-swapped '91 Hatch for T-hill, but Greg gave us a ridiculous hp/weight that we walked away from that idea. We were penalized by about 100 lbs for it when compared to the published numbers on this forum for PTE builds. Shooting from the hip without digging up the e-mail, it was like 145 hp/2500 lbs.

The car is more than capable, but we can't make up a 100lb. deficit.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:25 PM   #154
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2014 rules are up. I just skimmed it, but VVT cars are now on their own line for base classing. Lots of other weird little frivolous changes to the rest of the rulebook.

He added an appendix for dyno reclassed miatas, but it doesn't cover swapped cars. :slowjerk:

On the plus side, my 2 year old request for a 1.6 car to be able to swap to a 1.8 open diff for no points is now an approved no points mod. :successbaby:
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:35 PM   #155
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Where did they post the rules up?

NASA Time Trial still shows the 2013 rules.

EDIT: In the TT forum. Need to update the link on the rules page.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:46 PM   #156
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Wow, 01-05 VVT's are PTE* 2400 base classed. I guess I won't complain too much about my 99 but I'm still bummed about my brakes and not sure what will become of my 01 manifold that I have an email as a no-points mod.

Maxxis RC-1, SuperMiata spec tire, is now a 7 point tire.

I'm not likely racing much in with NASA anymore anyway, not sure why I care at this point.
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Old 12-27-2013, 04:50 PM   #157
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http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/p...ring_rules.pdf

Anybody want to buy some Sport brakes, calipers, brackets, master, booster and prop valve still in the box from Parts Group?
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Old 12-27-2013, 05:20 PM   #158
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Wow, 01-05 VVT's are PTE* 2400 base classed. I guess I won't complain too much about my 99 but I'm still bummed about my brakes and not sure what will become of my 01 manifold that I have an email as a no-points mod.
The NB2 points car is officially dead. We probably have Sonny to thank for that. Almost no change if you dyno class an NB2, though.

The only other big changes I see are the allowance of inverted rear shocks and no additional reduction in points for going more than 40mm under your base class tire.

Last edited by Savington; 12-27-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:48 PM   #159
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William was the first to configure a virtual NB2 PTE points car and told it to me about two years ago. At the time I did not know how to make enough power and make it handle right so I stuck with my dyno classed car. In developing the PTE car and other projects we eventually figured out the two hurdles and decided to build one. Sonnys car was an outgrowth of that.

At some point I think my customers are going to insist that we stop racing PT.
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Old 12-27-2013, 06:58 PM   #160
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Never mind.

Last edited by ILoveOffRamps; 12-27-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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