Hustler's new engine: help him pick parts, ya'll ( a thread for power tops)
12-13-2012, 03:42 PM
#103
I know there are plenty of others here that are more experienced and it's cool if you don't respect my opinion. I do understand mechanical over-rev. I simply feel that if you're putting rods in you should do head work (springs specifically). If you're concerned about bending rods from mechanical over-rev then why not make sure you don't bend valves or even worse damage pistons. Anyway sorry to waste your time 
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12-13-2012, 04:37 PM
#104
Tour de Franzia
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I know there are plenty of others here that are more experienced and it's cool if you don't respect my opinion. I do understand mechanical over-rev. I simply feel that if you're putting rods in you should do head work (springs specifically). If you're concerned about bending rods from mechanical over-rev then why not make sure you don't bend valves or even worse damage pistons. Anyway sorry to waste your time
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12-13-2012, 04:40 PM
#105
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There is one faction who doesn't understand the possibility of mechanical over-rev. Another faction who thinks parts like a damper and oil pump gears are unnecessary. A third faction who thinks that putting in stronger rods means I need to change the valvetrain. Finally a third faction who thinks I should spend an additonal $700+ to convert shim under bucket.
What do all these factions have in common? They own cars that have never or will never go under the SM record with the owner at the wheel. loooooooooooool
On a related note, I appreciate the input but I'm having a tough time narrowing down the best options.
What do all these factions have in common? They own cars that have never or will never go under the SM record with the owner at the wheel. loooooooooooool
On a related note, I appreciate the input but I'm having a tough time narrowing down the best options.
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12-13-2012, 04:47 PM
#106
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I don't use "headwork" to describe valve springs ("valvetrain" is more descriptive), but I agree that valve springs are a good idea if you're doing rods to prevent against mechanical overrev.
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12-13-2012, 08:20 PM
#109
I started researching this but ended up buying a built short block, yada yada.
This thread was a start.
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...-height-61864/
TurboTim said he found some places for head gaskets.
This thread was a start.
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...-height-61864/
TurboTim said he found some places for head gaskets.
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12-13-2012, 08:51 PM
#112
There is one faction who doesn't understand the possibility of mechanical over-rev. Another faction who thinks parts like a damper and oil pump gears are unnecessary. A third faction who thinks that putting in stronger rods means I need to change the valvetrain. Finally a third faction who thinks I should spend an additonal $700+ to convert shim under bucket.
What do all these factions have in common? They own cars that have never or will never go under the SM record with the owner at the wheel. loooooooooooool
On a related note, I appreciate the input but I'm having a tough time narrowing down the best options.
What do all these factions have in common? They own cars that have never or will never go under the SM record with the owner at the wheel. loooooooooooool
On a related note, I appreciate the input but I'm having a tough time narrowing down the best options.
cries about racecar raping budget
asks for advice to manage budget vs racecar
laughs at everyone for suggesting more frugal options
cries about more expensive options
builds a 10k n/a motor to run 160whp
still ends up breaking some **** and goes back to crying about it
oh wait that last part hasn't happened yet....
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12-14-2012, 12:40 AM
#114
The car that just won E1 @T25 had FM 85.0mm Wisecos, standard Carrillo A beam, and ran on CA91 pump gas. OTS, I think the FM variant of the Wiseco is probably the best N/A piston without going custom. The coating didn't last long on our set when run on race gas for some reason but that's not a big deal. We got no det anywhere and reached MBT on 91. Crown design does make a difference. I dislike that they are 2618 though. Noisy and more suited to race than street use IMO. Next best is probably the standard 83.5 and 84.0mm 10.5:1 Wisecos. The Supertech's don't have as functional as crown design but I love the way the 4032 behaves. For now we use ST's in other engines around the shop but we plan to develop a new 4032 piston with proprietary ring pack and more ideal crown design. Many months away but I think it's possible to have a nice quiet piston that will not burn oil and still survive our <200whp in an enduro motor without being too octane hungry.
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12-14-2012, 01:26 AM
#115
Emilio I agree the 4032 forging is the better choice of material. CP pistons will scan any piston you want and custom make a set for a reasonable amount. They should have 4032 blanks in the Miata sizes. I have had better luck with them than JE due to quality control of the barreling.
I don't think the OTS CP's have performed that well. It would be great to have someone bring together all of the best design elements of each manufacturer into one piston. At the moment everything is a compromise.
I don't think the OTS CP's have performed that well. It would be great to have someone bring together all of the best design elements of each manufacturer into one piston. At the moment everything is a compromise.
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12-14-2012, 10:02 AM
#116
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Emilio, long ago you made a post about William putting a $30 HDR straight shot intake on the car and you doing headwork and both gaining similar hp. Can you elaborate any on this?
Edit more reading for Trey.
Edit more reading for Trey.
= ~200whp. Andrew is quoting wheel horse power.
I've heard more like 185-190whp for the best EP motors but we're all in the same neighborhood. You guys must know of Terry Barnard. Retired now but it's safe to say he knows of what he speaks.
________
InfernalPlacebo,
Decide on a few things up front and it'll be easier for the rest of us to offer useful advice.
-Autocross, what class?
-Wheel to wheel racing or HPDE only, what class?
-Street only?
-Does it need to be emissions legal in any state? (what state)
-Must it be able to run on pump gas and if so, what octane?
-Must it run in a street car, (A/C, OEM alternator, col start driveability etc) ?
-Actual budget for everything connected to engine/power making hardware?
-Tuned by a pro or semi-knowledgeable amateur?
-You cool with the additional tuning/set up hassles of an IRTB set up?
-Does the car need to be quiet?
-Do you have a shop in mind that is familiar with race BP series builds?
Cost no object, I suspect someone could build a 300whp grenade that runs on exotic fuel. In the real world 150-190whp is doable within the budget of the most of us.
150whp is bolt-ons and a good tune. Above that you need to go into the motor.
160-165whp is just a little bowl work and compression.
170whp requires more substantial head work or mild cams or lots of compression, pick one.
185whp requires mild cams (still streetable in a VVT), compression, porting. Pick two.
195whp full head work, lots of compression and mild to medium race cams.
205whp+ is pretty much a full race engine with cams that would probably never idle for street use.
225whp+ so and the life expectancy begins to shorten. Perhaps 15-30 race hrs and you're looking at a $15-20K long block.
We have just touched 180whp on stock cams with an NB2 motor but it was not cheap. Based on the data from that experiment, I know 190whp on stock cams is possible with IRTB's, more compression and E85. At that point however, you should just feed it the cams it wants. We played with stock cams to gain a higher BFSC for endurance racing.
For most guys, I think a stock-ish cam NB2 build makes the most sense. Run as much compression as your fuel will stand, get the best ECU you can, build a Honda B series manifold grafted onto the Mazda flange, RB/Maruha/Maxim works header, fully port and polish the head. Forged everything, SUB's and heavier valve springs. That should net and easy 175whp or so, be safe to 8000rpm sustained, idle like a stocker and last 100 race hours.
I've heard more like 185-190whp for the best EP motors but we're all in the same neighborhood. You guys must know of Terry Barnard. Retired now but it's safe to say he knows of what he speaks.
________
InfernalPlacebo,
Decide on a few things up front and it'll be easier for the rest of us to offer useful advice.
-Autocross, what class?
-Wheel to wheel racing or HPDE only, what class?
-Street only?
-Does it need to be emissions legal in any state? (what state)
-Must it be able to run on pump gas and if so, what octane?
-Must it run in a street car, (A/C, OEM alternator, col start driveability etc) ?
-Actual budget for everything connected to engine/power making hardware?
-Tuned by a pro or semi-knowledgeable amateur?
-You cool with the additional tuning/set up hassles of an IRTB set up?
-Does the car need to be quiet?
-Do you have a shop in mind that is familiar with race BP series builds?
Cost no object, I suspect someone could build a 300whp grenade that runs on exotic fuel. In the real world 150-190whp is doable within the budget of the most of us.
150whp is bolt-ons and a good tune. Above that you need to go into the motor.
160-165whp is just a little bowl work and compression.
170whp requires more substantial head work or mild cams or lots of compression, pick one.
185whp requires mild cams (still streetable in a VVT), compression, porting. Pick two.
195whp full head work, lots of compression and mild to medium race cams.
205whp+ is pretty much a full race engine with cams that would probably never idle for street use.
225whp+ so and the life expectancy begins to shorten. Perhaps 15-30 race hrs and you're looking at a $15-20K long block.
We have just touched 180whp on stock cams with an NB2 motor but it was not cheap. Based on the data from that experiment, I know 190whp on stock cams is possible with IRTB's, more compression and E85. At that point however, you should just feed it the cams it wants. We played with stock cams to gain a higher BFSC for endurance racing.
For most guys, I think a stock-ish cam NB2 build makes the most sense. Run as much compression as your fuel will stand, get the best ECU you can, build a Honda B series manifold grafted onto the Mazda flange, RB/Maruha/Maxim works header, fully port and polish the head. Forged everything, SUB's and heavier valve springs. That should net and easy 175whp or so, be safe to 8000rpm sustained, idle like a stocker and last 100 race hours.
The rental motor cost, lets see..
1100 for entire motor
-600 for bits sold off of it
1100 head work
0 99 head that came with the car
200 BP5A cam
1100 custom AEM ECU
250 dyno tuning
900 header & exhaust
200 oil cooler
250 coolant reroute
300 37mm Koyo radiator
75 cone filter and DIY intake pipe
350 EUDM "square top" intake manifold
$4875 for everything under the hood
Or just the engine itself, $2850
159whp on pump gas in 80° heat. Since then I've learned how to make about another 10whp without spending another dime. I believe POPSTOY made his 168whp on a Dynojet. The Rental's engine would register about 175-180 on a Dynojet but I call it 159 in the real world.
The difference is that Bob's engine would probably spin safely to 8K all day long and still have 3% leakdown after 100 hours on track. The Rental motor spent part of it's life with a 7700rpm rev limit but that's very risky for a stock Miata engine. After about 120 hours of severe track abuse, the Rental is finally starting to burn a tiny bit of oil so it will be retired to my daily driver and have a catalytic stuck up it's butt.
Stone stock 99-00 with I/H/E will make 135whp without touching it. 142whp is just an ECU away. That last 17whp I made is the head work, intake cam and intake manifold. It ain't rocket science.
1100 for entire motor
-600 for bits sold off of it
1100 head work
0 99 head that came with the car
200 BP5A cam
1100 custom AEM ECU
250 dyno tuning
900 header & exhaust
200 oil cooler
250 coolant reroute
300 37mm Koyo radiator
75 cone filter and DIY intake pipe
350 EUDM "square top" intake manifold
$4875 for everything under the hood
Or just the engine itself, $2850
159whp on pump gas in 80° heat. Since then I've learned how to make about another 10whp without spending another dime. I believe POPSTOY made his 168whp on a Dynojet. The Rental's engine would register about 175-180 on a Dynojet but I call it 159 in the real world.
The difference is that Bob's engine would probably spin safely to 8K all day long and still have 3% leakdown after 100 hours on track. The Rental motor spent part of it's life with a 7700rpm rev limit but that's very risky for a stock Miata engine. After about 120 hours of severe track abuse, the Rental is finally starting to burn a tiny bit of oil so it will be retired to my daily driver and have a catalytic stuck up it's butt.
Stone stock 99-00 with I/H/E will make 135whp without touching it. 142whp is just an ECU away. That last 17whp I made is the head work, intake cam and intake manifold. It ain't rocket science.
Last edited by jacob300zx; 12-14-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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12-14-2012, 10:47 AM
#117
Tour de Franzia
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The car that just won E1 @T25 had FM 85.0mm Wisecos, standard Carrillo A beam, and ran on CA91 pump gas. OTS, I think the FM variant of the Wiseco is probably the best N/A piston without going custom. The coating didn't last long on our set when run on race gas for some reason but that's not a big deal. We got no det anywhere and reached MBT on 91. Crown design does make a difference. I dislike that they are 2618 though. Noisy and more suited to race than street use IMO. Next best is probably the standard 83.5 and 84.0mm 10.5:1 Wisecos. The Supertech's don't have as functional as crown design but I love the way the 4032 behaves. For now we use ST's in other engines around the shop but we plan to develop a new 4032 piston with proprietary ring pack and more ideal crown design. Many months away but I think it's possible to have a nice quiet piston that will not burn oil and still survive our <200whp in an enduro motor without being too octane hungry.
I may run downstairs and take the head off today.
Last edited by hustler; 12-14-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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12-14-2012, 12:13 PM
#120
Anyway, yeah, I'm not entirely happy with what we have and I need pistons for future projects so I'll either have to more custom pistons and maybe be able to bring a cost effective piston/ring set to market early next year. No guarantees though.
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