gtred

I have a new car online this year, a 2004 MSM. Thanks to this forum, I have been able to speed up the learning curve on several items, especially with regards to engine reliability. The engine ran three days of wheel to wheel racing without any reliability issues.

Still I wasn't able to engage racing as hard/assertive as I would like.
I do have some equipment and set-up difficulties to work out in many area's before I feel that I can "race the car hard" wheel to wheel and still maintain good control.

So far, my problems are:
1) engine management:
-a little rich over all. AFR's 10.5-11 under boost; 14 at mid throttle.
-a little trouble with the transition to light boost when feathering the throttle at mid corner; it bucks/surges lightly... but enough to unsettle the tires, which causes you to take the corner slower than optimal.
-the power is slightly off after 8 or so hot laps.

I am using 450 cc injectors and a re-flashed ECU. I can send it back to torque chip for new programming if I can articulate to them what it needs. I have a boost gauge, an egt, a wideband in the car. No data logger.

2) Brakes:
-spongey and inconsistent feeling with hard braking/ no confidence.
-the car lifts + wobbles under hard braking.
I am using Hawk blues front/back, front ducts, Motul fluid and rubber (yes rubber) lines. I am using the OEM ABS with the OEM electronic proportioning. The msm uses the slightly larger "sport brake rotors/calipers".

I have never run with ABS before, but I don't like the way it feels. I just can't get a feel for when lock-up is going to occur. The result is early braking and loss of confidence in traffic.

I think that the wobble in the brake zone is the suspension stretching and toeing out.

3) Shifting: Shifting this six speed is really hard to get it right. I've got to use 2-6. It seems that I'm never in the right gear. when I try to skip a gear (6-4) in the braking zone I will occasionally get it wrong and hit 2nd! I installed the stiffer motor mounts. Fluids are regular parts store grade. I do have trouble with the new ACT clutch; it seems that the disc is thicker than OEM and this makes the pedal release point too close to the floor. Perhaps I am not fully releasing the clutch when slicking off the gears?

Thank you all for your help in getting me sorted out. Craig ITE/SPM # 11

chpmnsws6

iTrader: (12)

Off the top you need-
Trackspeed Wilwood BBK with good pads
MS
3.6 gears
A good radiator (Again, order from TSE with the brakes)
A good Intercooler

That'll get you started in the right direction.... Hopefully the pro's will chime in

Savington

iTrader: (31)

1. If you can use a standalone, do so. Doesn't the MSM have weird little quirks like bucks and surges on a regular basis, even in street cars?

2. Are you allowed to upgrade the brakes? Since you've already got Sport rears and a Sport master/booster, the only thing you need to change is the fronts. I would also add a prop valve even though you don't have one from the factory - the OEM proportioning doesn't kick in until you're on the ABS which is part of the reason why you are torching the front brakes.

The best Miata brakes in the world are on cars with an NB sport master/booster, Wilwood prop valve, TSE 11.75s in front, and Sport or 1.8+MTuned rears. Bleed with a Motive pressure bleeder for the best results. Theseus and Rover both have this exact combo. Rock-hard pedal, every time, without fail, no excuses.

And get the rubber lines off the car ASAP. I've seen them fail and the results are not pretty.

3. It takes practice but it is a better gearbox than the 5-speed. Stop using 2nd (it's too short to be of any use anywhere) and just shift it slow and practice. I wasn't sure about it when I switched either, but I can shift a 6-speed faster than I can shift a 5-speed now.

pdexta

iTrader: (17)

If you're still on the stock intercooler, I've heard they heatsoak very quickly. There are a lot of inexpensive intercooler options that will help eliminate that power loss.

curly

iTrader: (25)

I was going to suggest an Amsoil fluid swap in your transmission too. Rule out any of those funky shifts that may not be your fault.

SS lines is definitely cheap insurance, and might get rid of some of the sponginess if/when they're real hot.

What's your suspension setup? Diving around on stock springs might cause some of the "lifting" you describe under braking. It's certainly not confidence inspiring.

Disable your ABS, problem solved. I think you can just pull the fuse?

gtred

wow! thanks for your quick responses.

chpmsnsws6: Yes taller gears would help me. I'm finding several places on the track that I'm having to make a quick 5-6 upshift because I'm bumping on the limiter (I've set it to 7400).

I wonder if I could improve this by using my OEM 17" wheels and a 225-40-17 Hoosier? It would be a bit taller than the 225-45-15 nitto's that I've currently got on it.

Savington: I acknowledge the standalone as the best option. I am hoping that chiptorque can get this one right, and I should give them a chance to try before I give any complaints; I knew that there would be some R&D work. My problem is not knowing how to articulate the problem, or get them the data that they need to make the correct changes. Any ideas on a way to data log the basics? Is there something that will plug into the obdII port + add on my wideband and manifold pressure/vacuum?

Brakes. On a race car, I know that for many things there is no grey area: it's either right or it's wrong. The equipment you've suggested is the right way.

pdexta: I forgot to list that I've upgraded my intercooler. Could the power loss be caused by the ECU pulling out timing when it sees high intake man temps? If so, could I modify the ecu or modify the IAT sensor to slightly raise the threshold of timing retard?

Curly: Fluid, Yes. I will try this first. Redline has always made a great product.

Suspension: Yes! This is what I'll likely be doing next. I'm temporarily running on a set of street sprung (400/250) HD Bilsteins. I am definately hitting the stops hard on the transitions (T5-6 and T10-11 @ PIR). It doesn't ruin your day, but you need to pause to wait for the car to catch up to the tires... predictable, but not so fast!

I did try to pull my ABS fuse. It turns out that my car also has electric proportioning which is part of the ABS system. It didn't work out so well.

For clarification: My "work in progress" is a 2004 MSM. Stock internals. Upgraded intake/intercooler. BEIG Garrett 2860/cast manifold/inconel/sg downpipe. BEGI ecu reflash ("conservative tune, 7400 soft cut, 7500 hard cut)/Denso 450cc injectors/ boost level 10-11#/ 100 octane low lead. Rx7 Oil cooler. AWR motor mounts. ACT lightened flywheel/ACT PP/ ACT organic disc sprung hub. Suspension is a worn street set-up: Eibach front/rear bars. Bilstein HD/coilover bodies/400#f/250#r. -2.2 front/-2.5 rear (maxed)/0 toe f/ -1/16r. Nitto 225-45-15 set to 40# hot. Hawk Blue pads, Motul fluid, Trackspeed front ducts.

Everything else is OEM. Q is: what to tackle next/first?

curly

iTrader: (25)

No god dammit!

AMSOIL

Don't change your wheels and tires, unless you have some heavy 15s. You have great tire selection for cheap, 17s will definitely hurt that, and they'll be a heavier setup. That's not how you should change gearing.

Keep the "greats", think about the "goods" and change the "boos".

gtred

Thank you.

hustler

iTrader: (6)

True in my sister's car.

I run this set up and it the stuff dreams are made of. It doesn't matter which track, whcih corner, no matter what, the pad feels exactly the same every time. The brakes are so good that the only time I've ever felt a change in the pedal was when I took the pad down to the backing-plate. The sport brakes the threadstarter is on are awful to a degree I cannot put into words. I should also note that at 250whp I went from replacing:
Sport brakes
1-1.5 days on a set of pads, 4 days on rotors
Corrado set-up
pads every 3 days and rotors every 3 days
TSE BBK
pads lasting ~12 days and rotors going at least 14-days since I'm still on the first set.

This is a personal safety concern.

I now prefer the 6-speed significantly too. I drive a 5-speed daily, 6-in my track car, and a 6 in my daily soon.

Mobius

iTrader: (2)

949 Xida's for suspension would be my vote.

Do you know what your oil temps are? From what I've seen of others tracking MSM's they tend to run high. Might consider an oil cooler. Are you running a quality synthetic? I like Mobil1, several here run Rotella T6, others will chime in with their recommendations.

midpack

iTrader: (3)

Good luck fixing the stock ECU, it is ------- retarded. Tuning via UPS sounds even stupider. Buy a MS2 from Reverant instead. Probably cost about what you paid for Chip Torque to solder something into your ECU. Didn't think they were flashing the MSM yet, only n/a NBs?

I've had the same issue on track with the stock ECU and never figured it out. I now blame VTCS. Easy enough to test on your next track day.

gtred

I've had the same issue on track with the stock ECU and never figured it out. I now blame VTCS. Easy enough to test on your next track day.[/QUOTE]

Is that the tumbler system? I am getting a tumbler code... 2004 I think. Can I just disconnect or disable them in the closed position?

Thank you for your suggestion.

Leafy

iTrader: (1)

Not many people complain about the hawks being squishy, I compare them more to pushing on a block of wood duct taped to the fire wall and the car slows down somehow. I would certainly bleed the brakes and switch to a better fluid, ATE super blue or Moutol 600. And you say it lifts up, only the back lifts up right? you need Grippier pads in the back, normally I would say shittier pads in the front but you track the car so you need good pads all around.

hustler

iTrader: (6)

The squishy pedal is from radial slop in the caliper, not the pad.

midpack

iTrader: (3)

yes
unplug it

kaisersoze

iTrader: (8)

The stock shifter is pretty good, but I did find that the Miataroadster shifter helped some with feel. I got the longer one and it put the shifter handle at a more natural location for me

soviet

iTrader: (10)

I'm no expert, but I think you run way too much tire pressure. Every Miata + NT-01 owner said somewhere around 31-34psi hot.

curly

iTrader: (25)

gt, what cold pressures are producing 40psi hot?

edit: keep in mind there's no magical pressure to run. AFAIK, you need to read the tire wear, temps, etc, and adjust accordingly.

hustler

iTrader: (6)

I agree but 31 psi has been great in every Miata on 225s that I've seen.

curly

iTrader: (25)

Yeah, that's more or less where I always am, but a 9psi jump sounds like a lot between cold and hot, so I'm guessing he's a few psi higher.