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Old 01-02-2014, 10:19 AM   #1
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Kind of like the suspension thread, I want to establish an easy to find/search list of tires and how well they perform compared to R comps and adjacent in performance summer tires. As always, run a 205 on a 8", run a 225 on a 9", run over yourself you're in SM.

Assumptions: 2 minute road course, 2-3 miles in length, the NT-01 will do a lap in 2 minutes, 205/50R15.
Notes: A 225/45R15 will be -.75 to -1 second faster than a 205.

Fast
Linglong L688 (long live the king)
Hoosier R75 (call the chiropractor)
Hoosier R80 (jesus christ)
Hoosier R100 (more)
BFG R1S (a lot)
Hoosier A6 (-4.0-4.5 depending on weather)
BFG R1
Hoosier SM6/R6 (-3.5, requires aero/skills?)
Hankook C71 (-2.5)
Toyo RR (-2.5)
Continental Grand-Am slick (225/45) (-1)
Maxxis RC-1 (0) (faster under 90F track temp)

Nitto NT-01 (0)

BFG Rivals (+1 or less) (easier to drive)
Hankook Ventus R-S3 (+1 or less)
Toyo R1R (195/50 pixie dust) (+1.5)
Bridgestone RE-11A ($Texas)
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Dunlop Direzza Star Specs Z1
Falken Azenis RT-615
Toyo RA1/R888 (noooooooooooooooooooo)
Slow


In the rain!
BFGoodrich g-Force KDW-R (-1) (depending on how much rain)

Hoosier H20 (0)

Continental Wet (+1?)
Toyo RA-1 (+3)
Toyo R888 (+4)
Everything else (+6)


These lists will be updated fairly regularly with input from you guys!

Last edited by Dunning Kruger Affect; 01-10-2014 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:21 AM   #2
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I'm still slow, but I'm slowly (ha) getting faster at my local tracks and I'm starting to consider R compounds for later in the year. All of my tire experiences have been with extreme performance summer tires, which have improved dramatically since I've been "in the scene". The gap has been closing on dedicated track-only compounds, but I know that manufacturers have come up with a few new products (RR, SM6, C71/51); however, there hasn't been that much change up compared to the street tires.

Here's just a list of tires off of the top of my head that I know. I've started the list in the OP with what I think is the "right" order, but I need some input from the Real Fast (So Cal) guys.

Street Tires:
BFG Rivals
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Hankook Ventus R-S3
Toyo R1R (only in 195/50R15 pixie dust)

R Comps
Nitto NT-01
Toyo R888
Hoosier A6
Hoosier R6
Hoosier SM6
Hoosier R7
Continental Grand-Am Slick
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:28 AM   #3
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Conti slicks are slower than all the Hoosiers is my understanding. Is the faster tire on top or on bottom?

You might want to add a range of expected time difference from a "+/-0 second" tire (pick one, probably the NT01 is a good middle ground).
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:31 AM   #4
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Aha, good catch.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:50 AM   #5
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I would add the sizes available, can it be street driven, how fast is it on a 2 minute track, price. Emilio and William have posted up many comparisons over the years.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:00 AM   #6
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Dry Grip - Wet Grip - Hot Grip - Cold Grip - Real-World Treadwear - Price

Do you have 3 pennies? I only have a nickel.

Ventus RS-3 - Dry (B+) - Wet (B) - Hot (A-) - Cold (F) - Real-world daily (15,000mi) - Real-world track (?? Hrs) - $120 ea?

Dunlop Star Specs - Dry (B-) Wet (C+) - Hot (B+) - Cold (C-) Real-world daily (25,000mi) - Real-world track (?? Hrs) - $110 ea?
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:27 AM   #7
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I kind of want to avoid a bunch of "feature creep", but available sizes aren't too bad. I think using a base tire and people giving their experiences in their thread with a specific tire or a comparison between a couple of tires is good. Like in the suspension thread, Racelands are on the bottom and stuff like Ohlins are on the top, not

Racelands - $75, eBay, 200# front, 122# rear
Ohlins - $Texas, 32-way adjustable, you should be able to get away with 423# springs

I can't remember the magazine, but they tested all of the summer tires and they all were within 3/4 of a second of each other on an autocross course. So for the chart, they can all be 2 seconds off of an NT-01, but people could CTRL+F the thread and find that the R-S3 is crappy under braking and that the Rivals have chunking issues.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacob300zx View Post
I would add the sizes available, can it be street driven, how fast is it on a 2 minute track, price. Emilio and William have posted up many comparisons over the years.
Any tire with a DOT stamp can be street driven. I've driven on A6s to the store and back. They just have a higher risk of punctures, and if its raining you have to be smart. From people who drive then on the street all the time, street driving doesnt seem to wear them significantly.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:22 PM   #9
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There are so many variables related to how well a given tire performs. Unless we're doing back-to-back comparison testing on the same track with similar weather, I'm not sure how meaningful listing lap times will be. I'm all for people giving their personal experiences though.

My only experience with a "real" tire is 205 Rivals which are so much better than the touring tires I had before it's not even funny.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:12 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
There are so many variables related to how well a given tire performs. Unless we're doing back-to-back comparison testing on the same track with similar weather, I'm not sure how meaningful listing lap times will be. I'm all for people giving their personal experiences though.

My only experience with a "real" tire is 205 Rivals which are so much better than the touring tires I had before it's not even funny.
A lot of people do go out and run tests during a session or two on different tires. They come back and post a one-liner in some newbie thread in the suspension section and its lost in time. I think sharing that and/or providing a link to these tid-bits of info is a good idea.


what I don't think is a good idea is trying to list every difference between these tires in a chart (available sizes (google please), hot/dry/wet/cold grip doesn't need to mentioned unless its a significant advantage/disadvantage). I think grouping similar laptime tires and having a quick note beside each one to point out differences between each tire is a good idea:

(I am making this data up)
You could probably do the chart a few ways (i provide an example below):
you can either include the approx. time difference if you want (R-Comps)
use a general one for the group and include difference as part of the note (extreme summers)
include the time difference in the note (Hoosiers).

Extreme summers (+2 seconds):
R1R ||| (lower performance +1 second, good feel/communication )
Rivals ||| (chunking)
RS-3 ||| (bad communication, braking feel sucks)

R-Comps:
R888 ||| +1 sec ||| (low tread life, doesn't like heat)
NT01 ||| 0 sec ||| (solid overall), overall baseline tire (ie all comparisons are based on this tire's laptime)

Hoosiers:
R6 ( -4 seconds, blah blah)
A6 ( -6 seconds, doesn't communicate well)


just my 2c. keep it simple and keep it relevant to track guys. If you are going to measure life, measure it in track hours and heat cycles.

Last edited by Seefo; 01-02-2014 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:20 PM   #11
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Extreme summers (+2 seconds):
R1R ||| (stickies compound of the bunch but on a snow tire carcas, very low temp, known as the worst wife tire because it doesnt communicate)
Rivals ||| (Jesus's gift to motorsports, wear like iron, fell like heat cycled out slicks with low air pressure)
RS-3 ||| (Dont brake worth ****, need to be driving on the surface of the sun to get them hot enough, probably could be rated 400TW on the street)
ZII ||| (A more difficult to drive fast version of the Z1)
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:29 PM   #12
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No love for the BFG R1 huh?

In my experience

BFG R1-S = Hoosier A6 > BFG R1 > Hoosier R6 > xxx > Continental Slick

The Conti tires suck compared to a regular R6 or BFG R1. The BFG R1-S is ~2-3s a lap faster than the Conti slick on a 2:00 road course.

Almost all of my experience is in FWD Hondas, or a little bit in an S2000.

At the NASA Nationals in 2011, I was ~1-1.5s faster on the standard BFG R1 then on Hoosier R6s, this was in a 260whp 3200lb Acura TL though, may not translate to Miatas.


Clearly, in regards to performance on Miatae, Emilio is probably the best resource for this.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:00 PM   #13
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Added the BFG R1 to the mix.

I have some ballpark figures that people are going to need to back up with anecdotal evidence (you see because the plural of anecdote is data).
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
As always, run a 205 on a 8", run a 225 on a 9", run over yourself you're in SM.
Rules are meant to be broken. (except the SM rule.) Most 205s will be slightly faster on a 9" wheel, but the difference would be hard to measure. The 205/50 SM6/R6 is definitely faster on a 9" wheel and the difference is easy to measure.

Assumptions: 2 minute road course, 2-3 miles in length, the NT-01 will do a lap in 2 minutes

Assuming all tires in a 205/50 where applicable
Fast
Hoosier R75 (call the chiropractor)
Hoosier R80 (jesus christ)
Hoosier R100 (more)
BFG R1S (a lot)
Hoosier A6 (-4.0-4.5 depending on weather)
BFG R1
Hoosier SM6/R6 (-3.5)
Hankook C71 (-2.5)
Toyo RR (-2.5)
Continental Grand-Am slick (225/45) (-1)

Nitto NT-01 (0)

BFG Rivals (+0.5 or less)
Hankook Ventus R-S3 (+1 or less)
Toyo R1R (195/50) (+1.5)
Dunlop Direzza ZII
Dunlop Direzza Star Specs Z1
Falken Azenis RT-615
Slow
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:34 PM   #15
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Blizzak DMV
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Blizzak DMV
Any studded tire will do a smoking first lap, and then the track is destroyed for everyone else including yourself.
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Old 01-02-2014, 03:17 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Any studded tire will do a smoking first lap, and then the track is destroyed for everyone else including yourself.
All I need is one lap, ------.
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:14 PM   #18
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Where does the Maxxis RC-1 fit it? Right at NT-01 or a little faster?
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:21 PM   #19
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Here is some anectodal evidence that the Continental slick sucks, and why I mostly hate them...

I went to Road America twice this year, once for the Grand AM race in August, and once for the Runoffs in September. Both times I went in Civics, but the cars are quite different.

Grand AM 2013 Civic Si = Professionally setup, $8k dampers with custom valving, $$$$ motor built by Realtime, $$$$ diff with custom settings, shitty Conti tires. ~2700 lbs with driver. Way more HPs and TRQs then next car. An $80k pro race car.

STL 2006 Civic Si= poorly set up by me, off the shelf cheap H&R coilovers, bone stock engine making barely over 200whp (stupid STL camshaft rules), some home-made aero, off the shelf OS Giken diff, ~2700 lbs with driver, shitty 7" wide wheels BUT BFG R1-S tires. Let's say 40whp, 40wtq less than the Grand AM car. A $30k CLUB race car, frantically built by me.

My fastest lap time in the Grand AM car at Road America..... 2:33.89

My fastest lap time in the STL car at Road America ...... 2:33.89

Granted, my Grand AM car was setup poorly that weekend, and it did do a 32.9 in qualifying form, but still a similar (albeit) much, much cheaper car with way, way less whp, wtq did the same lap time. Biggest difference (other than power) is Conti tires versus BFG R1-S tires. AND, the Conti tires are more expensive (new vs. new).


All that said, the Conti tires aren't bad per se, just bad when compared to basically every other RACE tire. The conti tires seem like good "take off" track day tires if you can get them cheap enough (the 15" are getting old, and rare), other than that they are $hit.

I always love during the driver interviews when the CTSCC driver's praise the Conti tires and how well they did. It's a lie, every single time. The series pays you money if you mention the tire during your interview. They had to add that little $ benefit to get people to mention them...
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Old 01-02-2014, 05:30 PM   #20
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DUHH you gays made me look for the chinese garbage as I was curious...

Tire Test: Nine Affordable Summer Tires Take On the Michelin PS2 Comparison Tests - Page 3 - Car and Driver
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