The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread - Page 29 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 05-16-2015, 12:37 PM   #561
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By the way, lets look at costs.

If you are going to buy used parts, almost anything is possible.

If you are buying new parts, I don't think you can go much cheaper than $600. If you swap in name brand sleeves and name brand springs, I think your costs will be around $900.

At that point it seems worthwhile to start considering the $1000-$1200 coilover kits available instead of building your own.
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Old 05-16-2015, 12:58 PM   #562
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NB has softer valving than the NA Bilstein. The shorter NA shock body is easier to install and allows more travel when lowered. NA shock really need to be revalved for best performance and comfort.
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Old 05-16-2015, 02:21 PM   #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edmcguirk View Post
People talk about what works and what will probably work best but then they often fail to mention if their advice applies to both the NA and NB or the advice refers to used part names or the equivalent names for new parts. (Hard-S, MSM, Bilstein HD, Bilstein B6, Bilstein B8, etc.,etc.)
As far as I'm concerned, any Bilstein deserves to be revalved, considering how simple it is to do and the fact that valving is dependent on things that change from car to car so one size can't fit all. We don't have enough knowledge on shim stack design to make this a common DIY thing yet and right now I'm more concerned with getting my car running than tearing parts down and doing the R&D, but it's only a matter of time before someone does and posts results.

As far as what works for an NA chassis vs and NB chassis, I just can't see that being particularly relevant. If you've modified your car, it's impossible to generalize, and if you want to keep your car completely stock, you won't be putting non-stock components on it.

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Originally Posted by edmcguirk View Post
I posted a question for clarification a few pages ago because I was trying to get specific advice for new shocks on a NB. I got good advice because I thought I should buy B8 shocks instead of the B6. (I was told the B8 is the same size shock but the extension is limited so springs won't rattle on lowered suspension - that advice is correct right?)
The difference is body length, not stroke. As far as I know, all Miata-specific Bilsteins have the same amount of travel. Shorter body length shocks have the same effect as deeper hats: more bump travel, less droop travel. My advice is to choose a shock and mount combination that gives you as much bump travel as possible without rubbing (as I recall, 1/3 bump and 2/3 droop is ideal).

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Originally Posted by edmcguirk View Post
But now I am seeing advice that the NA shock is a better choice than the NB shock. I assume that the NA shock is still a better choice for the NB Miata especially if the car will be lowered a little? (not too much)

So I guess I am looking at buying the Bilstein HD B6 shock for the NA for installation on my 2001?
Once again, assuming stock valving and body length are variables that were set wrong from the factory and should be corrected regardless, I'd say buy whatever you can get for cheap. That's why I went with MSM shocks, which are generally considered inferior.

If revalving is not an issue, Hard-S (stock on some NBs) and NA HD (aftermarket) have the most sane valving out of the box.

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Originally Posted by edmcguirk View Post
Then my choice is the Amazon kit mentioned earlier in this thread for its sleeves and 350 pound springs. Next I just have to pick up one pair of 450/8K springs on eBay and some Honda bump stops for a daily driver coilover setup at around $600.

Amazon.com: Rev9Power 1996 to 2000 Honda Civic Coilover Springs Lowering Kit Silver Color Lower Springs: Automotive
Honda part number 51722-SR0-003

(gonna risk getting cheap sleeves that are not as good as the All-Star sleeves for $150 more)
I wouldn't buy that kit at that price. It was less than half the price when I first posted it. I'd go around to your local ricer shops and ask to measure the springs on their cheap coilovers. You can probably find a set where you can use all four springs for the $70-90 they usually go for. I ended up spending $90 total since I could only use two springs.



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I am assuming that the NB does not necessarily need extended top hats but I think I can wait to make that decision.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
The only way to tell is to measure. Take your shock and spring off and jack the control arm up until something touches. Then measure the distance between mounting points. Odds are pretty good you'll find that you want them a quarter inch deeper or something. That's when you buy a length of 2" pipe and a six pack and find someone with a welder.
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Old 05-16-2015, 07:29 PM   #564
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The difference between the NB aftermarket sport and the NB HD is a spacer tube on the shaft internal to the shock which limits droop. Valving, body length, and shaft length are the same but less of the shaft sticks out because of the spacer.
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Old 05-16-2015, 08:32 PM   #565
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I guess the difference is stroke, then. I'll stop recommending those. Do all the others have the same stroke?
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Old 05-16-2015, 09:48 PM   #566
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Let's face it, I am not trying to stay stock, I am modifying my car for better daily driver/canyon carving performance but I am not spending money for a perfect system. I am choosing an off the shelf "good enough" system especially when compared to my original showa(?) shocks with 120K miles on them. I am also not buying used parts. I just don't want to deal with dinged up and rusty parts even if they are still good.

So, I won't be spending for name brand products and I won't be spending for re-valving. But at least that is an option for the future.

The Amazon kit is still listed as $52. That's a decent price for sleeves and one pair of springs. I just need another pair of springs and they usually go for less than $50 a pair. Sure if I dig deep I may find a coilover kit for $40 and a pair of springs for $40 but I haven't really seen any kits or springs significantly cheaper than that.

I have chosen 450/350 as my spring rates which appear to be a little on the hard side for a street car and a little on the soft side for a track car. But at least I know where I can order them all off the shelf right now compared to trying to get various Amazon or eBay sellers to admit what size their springs are.

I am just trying to understand if the recommended NA shocks are still also better shocks for a NB. (new Bilstein HD B6 shocks for the NA mounted on a 2001 NB with 450/350 springs)
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Old 05-17-2015, 12:22 AM   #567
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Then don't buy parts that are dinged up and rusty? Used dampers are literally the first place to save money here. Find some used Hard-S Billies and spend the money you save on quality sleeves or thrust bearings or other things that actually affect performance and durability. You can even spend $5 on a rattlecan of yellow paint if it makes you feel better.
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Old 05-17-2015, 07:49 AM   #568
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The Hard S valving and the MSM valving are pretty similar and I have ridden in cars with both. They both are very controlled and match nicely with spring rates of 400-450 in the front and 300 rear for a street car with a taut, controlled ride. It won't rattle your teeth together and it will feel very firm but compliant, even over uneven roads.
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Old 05-18-2015, 12:25 PM   #569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seefo View Post
Failing snap rings was covered earlier. Using a sleeve that covers the snap ring should help with that. Worn snap rings are more likely to give especially if the sleeve is not holding it to the body of the shock.

The Bilstein OE perch does exactly that. its got an edge that fits over the snap ring and the rest of the perch slides over it.

If jacking is "wiggling" the sleeve over the circ clip, certainly driving on track will. I have marked and/or taped a loose sleeve before which definitely didn't work. Atleast not for long.


TLDR; buy the all-star sleeves.
I'm not using a Bilstein OEM perch; I'm using an aftermarket AFCO coil-over body.

I wanted to stress that my AFCO Bilstein sleeves do fit over and capture the snap-ring; and that after the prior failure the snap-ring was replaced with a new one from Bilstein... then it failed again last week.

The problem seems to be excessive tolerance between the aftermarket sleeve and the shock body. I tried to get a more accurate measure on the side to side slop this weekend and it looked to be more like 1/16"+. I think that this is allowing the snap ring to spread, especially if the coil-over body gets tipped at an angle (as when jacking and then unloading/loading). So watch for this in your budget coil-over set-ups. Apparently, All-Star sleeves are being recommended by Seefo. Still, check that the All-Star's adequately capture the snap ring and hold it from expanding in its groove.
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Old 05-18-2015, 12:29 PM   #570
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I'm gonna need pics and details of your setup, please.


I've been looking at moving to a Bilstein ASN body in the future.
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Old 05-18-2015, 12:38 PM   #571
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There were Q's earlier about the MSM oem shock valving.

The MSM oem Bilstein's valving is:

Front: #04050a539w000:

.13 m/s = rebound 906n compression 402n
.26 m/s = 1138n 517n
.39 m/s = 1351n 633n

Rear: #04049a538w000:

.13m/s = 985n 435n
.26m/s = 1200n 560n
.39m/s = 1405n 685n
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Old 05-18-2015, 04:07 PM   #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedj View Post
I'm not using a Bilstein OEM perch; I'm using an aftermarket AFCO coil-over body.

I wanted to stress that my AFCO Bilstein sleeves do fit over and capture the snap-ring; and that after the prior failure the snap-ring was replaced with a new one from Bilstein... then it failed again last week.

The problem seems to be excessive tolerance between the aftermarket sleeve and the shock body. I tried to get a more accurate measure on the side to side slop this weekend and it looked to be more like 1/16"+. I think that this is allowing the snap ring to spread, especially if the coil-over body gets tipped at an angle (as when jacking and then unloading/loading). So watch for this in your budget coil-over set-ups. Apparently, All-Star sleeves are being recommended by Seefo. Still, check that the All-Star's adequately capture the snap ring and hold it from expanding in its groove.
You need sleeves designed for the shock body diameter. Bilstein does make ~1.69" body shocks instead of the ~1.90" shocks you see on the miata B6/B8 shocks. If your AFCOs use a different line of Bilsteins, confirm that your sleeve is made for that particularly diameter shock. 1/16" SEEMS like a lot of tolerance to me.
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Old 05-18-2015, 05:15 PM   #573
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So I'm guessing you did not tape or o - ring the shock body to prevent movement of the sleeves as described in the previous pages in a couple of spots.
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Old 05-18-2015, 05:47 PM   #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seefo View Post
You need sleeves designed for the shock body diameter. Bilstein does make ~1.69" body shocks instead of the ~1.90" shocks you see on the miata B6/B8 shocks. If your AFCOs use a different line of Bilsteins, confirm that your sleeve is made for that particularly diameter shock. 1/16" SEEMS like a lot of tolerance to me.
The MSM shock body is 50mm and the All-Star sleeves made to fit Bilstein shocks is 2.00" (don't remember the actual number). They fit pretty tight, no slop.

The AFCO sleeves are advertised at 2.064" which would be excessive especially if the sleeves aren't centered somehow. They don't list how big the c'bore for the clip is.

7" coil-over Sleeve | AfcoDynaPro.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
So I'm guessing you did not tape or o-ring the shock body to prevent movement of the sleeves as described in the previous pages in a couple of spots.
When I installed the All-Star sleeves I actually had to tap the sleeve down with a plastic mallet to get them seated. Not even enough space for 1 pc of duct tape.
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Old 05-18-2015, 05:55 PM   #575
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When I installed the All-Star sleeves I actually had to tap the sleeve down with a plastic mallet to get them seated. Not even enough space for 1 pc of duct tape.
Sweet! I'm ordering a set.
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Old 05-18-2015, 05:57 PM   #576
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I had to do one band of electrical tape around each to get them snug, but it did involve some tapping as well.
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Old 05-22-2015, 11:50 PM   #577
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<p>Any one ever seen this happen? Cordy sleeves NA bilsteins.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p></p>
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Old 05-23-2015, 08:50 AM   #578
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedj View Post
...The problem seems to be excessive tolerance between the aftermarket sleeve and the shock body. I tried to get a more accurate measure on the side to side slop this weekend and it looked to be more like 1/16&quot;+. I think that this is allowing the snap ring to spread, especially if the coil-over body gets tipped at an angle (as when jacking and then unloading/loading). So watch for this in your budget coil-over set-ups. Apparently, All-Star sleeves are being recommended by Seefo. Still, check that the All-Star's adequately capture the snap ring and hold it from expanding in its groove.
</p>
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:25 PM   #579
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<p>Any one ever seen this happen? Cordy sleeves NA bilsteins.</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p></p>
Do you have the sleeve upside down? Some sleeves have a tapered end and a cut straight end. If the tapered end is on the circlip I could see it wiggling the circlip loose.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:36 PM   #580
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Pretty sure it was lack of tape. They fit really tight so I assumed it wasn't needed. So far so good after taping.
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