The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread
06-23-2015, 11:39 AM
#621
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Join Date: Jun 2015
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Nope...
He's talking about my pics in post #219 (https://www.miataturbo.net/suspensio...1/#post1152122) which were bought from Summit here; http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all64162
He's talking about my pics in post #219 (https://www.miataturbo.net/suspensio...1/#post1152122) which were bought from Summit here; http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aaf-all64162
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06-23-2015, 10:02 PM
#622
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The original 5" tubes had no recess milled to slip over the ring... it just rest on it. But with the adjusting collars maxed out, the lowest i could get in the front was a 6" pinch height. I suppose i could have milled them 2" deep to slip over the snap ring - I'm talking about milling the ID of the tube to be slightly larger than the OD of the snap ring - and mill it 2" deep into the tube.
So that's basically what i did with the 7"tubes to be sure i could could get hella stance if i wanted, but basically milled to get the top of the tube flush with the top of the shock body. The allstars already have about 1" deep recess that fits over the ring - i just added to it.
So that's basically what i did with the 7"tubes to be sure i could could get hella stance if i wanted, but basically milled to get the top of the tube flush with the top of the shock body. The allstars already have about 1" deep recess that fits over the ring - i just added to it.
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07-04-2015, 10:40 PM
#627
Just finished up my ebay coil over install and I figured out a few things I think warrant a discussion and should explain the rash of popped circlips.
1: I got the raw aluminum honda accord kit with silver springs, it came with ~6" sleeves as well as 7" springs which I threw in the trash. The sleeves will stick up above the top of the body of the shock on NB hard S shocks, so they'll pretty much do the same on any bilstein. You CAN'T leave them this way, hack em off with a saw of some sort if left protruding above the shock body you will slam the top hat into them eventually and pop the circlip.
2: After looking at the circlip and how much of the sleeve actually sits on it I'm not comfortable recommending them ride on top of the clip. I own a lathe so I chucked up the sleeves and machined a relieve into them much like the circle track based sleeves mentioned earlier. This did two things, first it got the sleeves below the top of the shock and second it gave me an increased adjustment range. If you can't add the pocket pony up for the circle track sleeves. I ended up machining the pocket 1.5" on the front and 1" on the rear.
3: You can't use over 7" springs on these, I machined a 1.5" pocket on the front shocks and with 8" 800 lb/in springs and the collars bottomed out I'm at 12.75". I'll machine another .5" at a later date. If you try to use 6" springs there is a very real risk of coil bind and popped circlips. Still need to double check for coil bind with 7" springs as well. I went with the 8" springs to be sure this wouldn't be a problem with the thicker wire that the 800's have. The 7" 450's on the back were fine.
4: There is a lot of chatter about bump stops on here but I don't think as a group we spend enough time talking about them and what it really means to handling on the miata. I knew I would be limited on bump travel with the NB shocks on my NA, but after seeing how short I needed to make the bump stops to maximize travel without letting the tires hit the fender well I'm convinced most folks are giving up 1-2" of bump travel which is a LOT of travel when you're running anywhere near 12" ride height. Extended top hats help this, but you still have to check it. I slapped the shocks on without the springs and jacked the car off the ground with the tire on. Then trimmed the bump stop till I had 1" of clearance from the tire to the fender. This will allow for the additional compression a hard bump will impart on the stop vs. jacking it up. I'll add shims or trim more once I test drive it some. For starters I'm at 1.6" worth of NB factory bump stop on the front. ~1" worth of NA front bump stop on the rear, I used the NA stop since I wanted a firmer stop. To put that into perspective a lot of folks are using ~54mm stops I'm at 40mm front and 25mm rear and will most likely go shorter.
Any thoughts?
1: I got the raw aluminum honda accord kit with silver springs, it came with ~6" sleeves as well as 7" springs which I threw in the trash. The sleeves will stick up above the top of the body of the shock on NB hard S shocks, so they'll pretty much do the same on any bilstein. You CAN'T leave them this way, hack em off with a saw of some sort if left protruding above the shock body you will slam the top hat into them eventually and pop the circlip.
2: After looking at the circlip and how much of the sleeve actually sits on it I'm not comfortable recommending them ride on top of the clip. I own a lathe so I chucked up the sleeves and machined a relieve into them much like the circle track based sleeves mentioned earlier. This did two things, first it got the sleeves below the top of the shock and second it gave me an increased adjustment range. If you can't add the pocket pony up for the circle track sleeves. I ended up machining the pocket 1.5" on the front and 1" on the rear.
3: You can't use over 7" springs on these, I machined a 1.5" pocket on the front shocks and with 8" 800 lb/in springs and the collars bottomed out I'm at 12.75". I'll machine another .5" at a later date. If you try to use 6" springs there is a very real risk of coil bind and popped circlips. Still need to double check for coil bind with 7" springs as well. I went with the 8" springs to be sure this wouldn't be a problem with the thicker wire that the 800's have. The 7" 450's on the back were fine.
4: There is a lot of chatter about bump stops on here but I don't think as a group we spend enough time talking about them and what it really means to handling on the miata. I knew I would be limited on bump travel with the NB shocks on my NA, but after seeing how short I needed to make the bump stops to maximize travel without letting the tires hit the fender well I'm convinced most folks are giving up 1-2" of bump travel which is a LOT of travel when you're running anywhere near 12" ride height. Extended top hats help this, but you still have to check it. I slapped the shocks on without the springs and jacked the car off the ground with the tire on. Then trimmed the bump stop till I had 1" of clearance from the tire to the fender. This will allow for the additional compression a hard bump will impart on the stop vs. jacking it up. I'll add shims or trim more once I test drive it some. For starters I'm at 1.6" worth of NB factory bump stop on the front. ~1" worth of NA front bump stop on the rear, I used the NA stop since I wanted a firmer stop. To put that into perspective a lot of folks are using ~54mm stops I'm at 40mm front and 25mm rear and will most likely go shorter.
Any thoughts?
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07-05-2015, 06:38 PM
#628
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Join Date: Jul 2015
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Totally agree with your approach on (2), this is what I also intend on doing in my setup. Besides allowing to (potentially) sit lower without machining a new groove, the relief goes "around" the OD of the circlip, not allowing it to be popped (as they need to "increase" their OD to get off the groove).
Long springs is a good idea, just to avoid coil binding. I plan on running Eibach springs and "deck height" of those is available. Since I plan on running relatively soft springs, I need the extra length.
Bumpstops are an integral part of a Miaa suspension; the OEM suspension uses bumpstops as part of the operating range. I plan on extending my top mounts by the exact amount of lowering I plan to run (nothing too low). Thus the engagement point (and the front/rear ratio) of the bumpstops will remain OEM.
Since that would be extremely useful, could/had you measured how much bump/droop travel the stock shocks allow without anything (suspension arms or tires) hitting something?
Long springs is a good idea, just to avoid coil binding. I plan on running Eibach springs and "deck height" of those is available. Since I plan on running relatively soft springs, I need the extra length.
Bumpstops are an integral part of a Miaa suspension; the OEM suspension uses bumpstops as part of the operating range. I plan on extending my top mounts by the exact amount of lowering I plan to run (nothing too low). Thus the engagement point (and the front/rear ratio) of the bumpstops will remain OEM.
Since that would be extremely useful, could/had you measured how much bump/droop travel the stock shocks allow without anything (suspension arms or tires) hitting something?
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07-06-2015, 02:26 PM
#629
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Join Date: Feb 2015
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Your suggestion of coil bind might be appropriate on my rear set-up (that popped a clip). While I have not checked to see if it did actually bind, I would note that I am using a 6" spring with a tendering spring (I believe it is approx one inch compressed).
Also, when you cut off the excess tube length of the coilover body, you may also cut off the centering ridge on the top; this will allow the top of the coilover body to rock side to side. (This was true on the AFCO's and the All-Star's that I had used.
One more thing to consider with the All-Star coilover bodies (previously suggested): (with a 6" spring combined with a tendering spring; total 7" spring length) I was unable to get low enough for my target rear ride height. It seems that the All-Star body had a different height than the AFCO. (It engaged the clip and the coilover body sat higher on the shock). This didn't allow for a low enough rear spring perch setting. It will need to be machined for another 1/4" or so drop.
Also, when you cut off the excess tube length of the coilover body, you may also cut off the centering ridge on the top; this will allow the top of the coilover body to rock side to side. (This was true on the AFCO's and the All-Star's that I had used.
One more thing to consider with the All-Star coilover bodies (previously suggested): (with a 6" spring combined with a tendering spring; total 7" spring length) I was unable to get low enough for my target rear ride height. It seems that the All-Star body had a different height than the AFCO. (It engaged the clip and the coilover body sat higher on the shock). This didn't allow for a low enough rear spring perch setting. It will need to be machined for another 1/4" or so drop.
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07-08-2015, 09:00 AM
#630
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Join Date: Jul 2015
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Coil binding can be avoided if you know the exact specs of your suspension. Spring manufacturers often state a "block height", which is the height of a fully compressed "binded" spring. When designing your coilover setup, you should keep in mind that the suspension should stop on the bumpstop (not contacting the bumpstop, stopping on it) right before coil binding occurs. The rest is simple geometry. Another consideration, especially with softer spring setups, is that your bumpstop should be fully engaged BEFORE the suspension contacts anything else (A-Arms to frame or tire to fender). Again the main rule is that the suspension positive (compression) stop should be the actual bumpstop. That's why I asked if anyone has the full range of movement measurements without springs, it makes everything relatively easy to calculate.
Regarding your comments on the sleeves, I would not cut the top for the reasons you mentioned. Instead, I would try to take the sleeve lower compared to the body, by turning/machining a recess on its ID, so that the sleeve can slide past the circlip. That (if tight enough) also prevents the circlip to come loose. However, even if done so, you might not be able to go low enough for your taste. To my knowledge, there is lower perch/halfshaft interference at some point.
Regarding your comments on the sleeves, I would not cut the top for the reasons you mentioned. Instead, I would try to take the sleeve lower compared to the body, by turning/machining a recess on its ID, so that the sleeve can slide past the circlip. That (if tight enough) also prevents the circlip to come loose. However, even if done so, you might not be able to go low enough for your taste. To my knowledge, there is lower perch/halfshaft interference at some point.
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07-10-2015, 05:30 PM
#631
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OK, time for a "reality check" for my intended setup. Note, I haven't measured anything on my car yet; would love to remove springs and do stock travel measurements, but since it is a daily, that's not a real option. So, until a volunteer comes up, I have accumulated as much knowledge as possible to work out some "arbitrary" numbers. If anyone has run sth similar, please chime in.
Since this is for my daily, 90% of the time it is b-roads or potholes, therefore I want sth relatively comfy. I also want it to sit moderately lower than stock, 12.5" would be the absolute lowest. I already have a set of Billies off of a JDM Type RS NB2 (same as HardS I believe). I am looking in using 375/275 Eibach springs in 8"/7" lengths, AllStar-style sleeves (with "captive" c-clip) and 1" extended top mounts at both ends, with stock NB2 bumpstops. Things I am still debating on are spring lengths and top hats "extension" length (might go 1.5").
By checking the block height of the Eibachs and doing some assumptions, I believe I will not end up with coil binding. Moreover, I also think that the lengths are enough for the springs to be seated without tenders/helpers under full droop. Any comments?
Of course, as mentioned, I would love to verify those ballpack numbers with exact calculations, but I lack the necessary measurements... When and if I have them, I will create a spreadsheet so to be easier to calculate such things.
Since this is for my daily, 90% of the time it is b-roads or potholes, therefore I want sth relatively comfy. I also want it to sit moderately lower than stock, 12.5" would be the absolute lowest. I already have a set of Billies off of a JDM Type RS NB2 (same as HardS I believe). I am looking in using 375/275 Eibach springs in 8"/7" lengths, AllStar-style sleeves (with "captive" c-clip) and 1" extended top mounts at both ends, with stock NB2 bumpstops. Things I am still debating on are spring lengths and top hats "extension" length (might go 1.5").
By checking the block height of the Eibachs and doing some assumptions, I believe I will not end up with coil binding. Moreover, I also think that the lengths are enough for the springs to be seated without tenders/helpers under full droop. Any comments?
Of course, as mentioned, I would love to verify those ballpack numbers with exact calculations, but I lack the necessary measurements... When and if I have them, I will create a spreadsheet so to be easier to calculate such things.
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07-21-2015, 09:49 AM
#633
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I got a defective Allstar 64142 threaded sleeve from Summit.
The 64142 has two areas (one near the top, one near the bottom) which are machined for the OD of the shock, as detailed in the helpful post linked above.
On 3 of my 4, it's machined just about perfectly. The slip-fit on the shock scratches the Bilstein paint a bit, and I can lift the shock by the sleeve without the 5lb shock falling out. It's a nice, snug, fit with zero clearance for wrapping tape (like folks are doing with eBay sleeves), and zero clearance around the snap ring.
The 4th one, however, is completely different. The ID of the two slip-fit areas in this sleeve is way too big, and the snap-ring shoulder is way too small. This tube rattles around loose on the shock body.
If your Allstar threaded sleeve looks like the one on the left, call Summit and have them send you another one.
The 64142 has two areas (one near the top, one near the bottom) which are machined for the OD of the shock, as detailed in the helpful post linked above.
On 3 of my 4, it's machined just about perfectly. The slip-fit on the shock scratches the Bilstein paint a bit, and I can lift the shock by the sleeve without the 5lb shock falling out. It's a nice, snug, fit with zero clearance for wrapping tape (like folks are doing with eBay sleeves), and zero clearance around the snap ring.
The 4th one, however, is completely different. The ID of the two slip-fit areas in this sleeve is way too big, and the snap-ring shoulder is way too small. This tube rattles around loose on the shock body.
If your Allstar threaded sleeve looks like the one on the left, call Summit and have them send you another one.
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10-01-2015, 01:44 PM
#634
I haven't kept up with this entire thread but I don't remember seeing these posted here. Perfect fit on bilsteins, no cutting required, and they capture the snap ring... all for just a few more bucks than the allstar setup. I just installed a set and have no complaints.
Coilover Sleeve and Nut Set [001-AA-CSNS] - $139.95 : Advanced Autosports, Miata Race Parts, Spec Miata and TRANS AM Race Car Sales, Service, Build & Rentals Support in Midwest
Coilover Sleeve and Nut Set [001-AA-CSNS] - $139.95 : Advanced Autosports, Miata Race Parts, Spec Miata and TRANS AM Race Car Sales, Service, Build & Rentals Support in Midwest
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10-19-2015, 08:18 PM
#635
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South East PA
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Looking for the 'throw away parts' from a coil over build
MiataTurbo,
I have a set of NB Bilstein Hard-S Shocks and springs that I am planning on using in an NA.
I don't have any of the extra parts that it looks like many of you are tossing (spring isolators, the 'big washer cup' that goes over the bumpstop, etc.) All I have are the shocks and the springs.
If any of you have any of these parts that you have not yet discarded, can you please contact me?
Thank you very much!
Jac
I have a set of NB Bilstein Hard-S Shocks and springs that I am planning on using in an NA.
I don't have any of the extra parts that it looks like many of you are tossing (spring isolators, the 'big washer cup' that goes over the bumpstop, etc.) All I have are the shocks and the springs.
If any of you have any of these parts that you have not yet discarded, can you please contact me?
Thank you very much!
Jac
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10-19-2015, 08:48 PM
#636
MiataTurbo,
I have a set of NB Bilstein Hard-S Shocks and springs that I am planning on using in an NA.
I don't have any of the extra parts that it looks like many of you are tossing (spring isolators, the 'big washer cup' that goes over the bumpstop, etc.) All I have are the shocks and the springs.
If any of you have any of these parts that you have not yet discarded, can you please contact me?
Thank you very much!
Jac
I have a set of NB Bilstein Hard-S Shocks and springs that I am planning on using in an NA.
I don't have any of the extra parts that it looks like many of you are tossing (spring isolators, the 'big washer cup' that goes over the bumpstop, etc.) All I have are the shocks and the springs.
If any of you have any of these parts that you have not yet discarded, can you please contact me?
Thank you very much!
Jac
Huh? I don't recall anyone "tossing" parts.
You're welcome!
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10-20-2015, 06:40 AM
#638
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: South East PA
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Sorry for not being more clear! I was referring to the stock parts that are not used in the coil over creation. Mostly the spring isolators for the stock springs (28-0A3 and 28-012A) and the big lower bump stop cup (28-777) that does not fit with the coil over springs.
Looking for one pair of NB top hats as well.
Thanks!
Looking for one pair of NB top hats as well.
Thanks!
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10-20-2015, 06:48 AM
#639
I just installed this setup, you NEED the nb top hats for the hard-s on a NA. Even with them I still ended up with a rear bump stop that was ~1/2" tall in the rear and ~1" in the front. I had odd handling issues until I got them out of the way and I'm running 800/450. With that said you can get by with just the top hat and those bushings along with some parts store fender washers. I didn't use much else.
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11-04-2015, 05:00 PM
#640
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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So I have read this entire thread a couple of times as well as the threads on CR and miata.net. I am inspired by all of this. Here is my planned set up as follows I have already bought the springs and bumpstops. This for my 96 NA.
QA1 7x450 springs up front
QA1 7x300 springs in the rear
Integra medium density bumpstops front and rear.
NB top hats in the front
ISC 1 inch hats in the rear
NB bilsteins or Sports. not sure which will be better or if there is even a difference.
Allstar sleeves.
I am planning on using torrinton bearings the vid with the twisting spring as it compressed sold me. So I hope this set up should work well. I do autcross fairly regularly but it isn't my everything. The main use for the car is mountain driving and street driving. Thanks for sharing all of this info ya'll any suggestions are welcomed.
QA1 7x450 springs up front
QA1 7x300 springs in the rear
Integra medium density bumpstops front and rear.
NB top hats in the front
ISC 1 inch hats in the rear
NB bilsteins or Sports. not sure which will be better or if there is even a difference.
Allstar sleeves.
I am planning on using torrinton bearings the vid with the twisting spring as it compressed sold me. So I hope this set up should work well. I do autcross fairly regularly but it isn't my everything. The main use for the car is mountain driving and street driving. Thanks for sharing all of this info ya'll any suggestions are welcomed.
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