Discuss Pre-production of frame rails
04-17-2015, 04:19 AM
#1
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Discuss Pre-production of frame rails
I have The First Piece Of the Pre-production version of an NA/NB frame Rail set.
Its Made of Mild steel,and Is for Fit up Only.The Final Parts Will Be Very similar in design,and Be Made Of 16g 304 Stainless Steel
.
I've Made a few changes to the Original designs,enough to make it its own.
First I've Added more Mounting points,more bolt holes spread the Twisting and Flexing forces across a greater area of the Floor pan.
Secondly,a central stiffening crease to add further rigidity.As you may see,it Is in inward crease so that there should be no loss of Ground clearance.
Additionally,there are "tripler"washer Plates,to effectively triple the the thickness of the frame rail at the mounting points.
And finally all of the out side edges,triangular cutouts and transitions have radii,to add strength,halt Crack propagation and to Make the Parts a little safer to Handle.
The As installed Pieces will be secured with a minimum of 15 3/8-16 bolts,with either lock nuts or locking patches on the Bolts.
After they are installed,the donor car will be tested in accordance with recognized methods to Verify the increases in torsional and flexural stiffness.
So, I will not Make Any claims to any theoretical design improvements,I will let the test results do that.
So,It has taken a long time for me to get these made,But I Am Very Pleased with How they Turned Out,and would Welcome constructive discussion as to the merits or demerits of what I've Shown.
The Final parts are slated to Be In the $140 range,and Would Include 2 rails,30 Nuts and bolts,and 60 washer Plates.This is an estimate Based upon the manufacture of 20 sets,if More are Made,the cost will drop and the end user price will drop as well.
Thanks For Looking.
Rev.G-
Its Made of Mild steel,and Is for Fit up Only.The Final Parts Will Be Very similar in design,and Be Made Of 16g 304 Stainless Steel
.
I've Made a few changes to the Original designs,enough to make it its own.
First I've Added more Mounting points,more bolt holes spread the Twisting and Flexing forces across a greater area of the Floor pan.
Secondly,a central stiffening crease to add further rigidity.As you may see,it Is in inward crease so that there should be no loss of Ground clearance.
Additionally,there are "tripler"washer Plates,to effectively triple the the thickness of the frame rail at the mounting points.
And finally all of the out side edges,triangular cutouts and transitions have radii,to add strength,halt Crack propagation and to Make the Parts a little safer to Handle.
The As installed Pieces will be secured with a minimum of 15 3/8-16 bolts,with either lock nuts or locking patches on the Bolts.
After they are installed,the donor car will be tested in accordance with recognized methods to Verify the increases in torsional and flexural stiffness.
So, I will not Make Any claims to any theoretical design improvements,I will let the test results do that.
So,It has taken a long time for me to get these made,But I Am Very Pleased with How they Turned Out,and would Welcome constructive discussion as to the merits or demerits of what I've Shown.
The Final parts are slated to Be In the $140 range,and Would Include 2 rails,30 Nuts and bolts,and 60 washer Plates.This is an estimate Based upon the manufacture of 20 sets,if More are Made,the cost will drop and the end user price will drop as well.
Thanks For Looking.
Rev.G-
Last edited by Reverend Greg; 04-17-2015 at 04:40 AM. Reason: spelling,pictures and format
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04-17-2015, 07:43 AM
#2
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I hate buying something and then having to go to the store to buy items to complete the install. As long as you're supplying some of the hardware, supply it all. Include lock washers for the nut side as well. Even if you have to up the price slightly, I'm sure the end user will appreciate not having to run to the store after opening the box.
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04-17-2015, 10:08 AM
#5
Some thoughts.
1. Bumping an old thread started by an unhappy customer in order to announce your return is...bold. Is bold the right word?
2. I counted 26 bolts holes on one side of one rail. You mention supplying 30 totals nuts/bolts, so that would be 15 per rail? Either 7 or 8 per side? Are all the additional bolt holes just added lightness?
3. I'm a little confused about this "tripler" idea. Are you marketing the use of washers top and bottom as a unique feature?
1. Bumping an old thread started by an unhappy customer in order to announce your return is...bold. Is bold the right word?
2. I counted 26 bolts holes on one side of one rail. You mention supplying 30 totals nuts/bolts, so that would be 15 per rail? Either 7 or 8 per side? Are all the additional bolt holes just added lightness?
3. I'm a little confused about this "tripler" idea. Are you marketing the use of washers top and bottom as a unique feature?
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04-17-2015, 10:58 AM
#7
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In turn,
Bumping a Thread like That iS Bold,maybe Even Stupid.But,I was only having Fun. I've Been Back For sometime.
That Guy received everything He Paid for..Promptly.Most Of that rancor was 2 people being internet brave,also stupid.
Istarted this thread trying to Leave all of that Behind,Might be a lost Cause But I'm going to Give it a Shot.Why,Because this site Is Where the People are,not going to Lie.Would Like To Make enough to Put Me Back In a Miata.
Could We please try and mark it up to One guy feeling slighted,and another not used to people questioning an extraordinarily difficult portion of his Life?
Thanks.
Ok,
1.Lock washers are glaring omission on my part,point made and taken,Thanks.
2.The only reason Ive contemplated using SAE bolts Is for the cost.Im trying to Supply the Lowest cost possible ,so that more people can afford them.The price is estimated off of Only 20 sets.Im Sure "other"Brands Never order so few.I wanted to Get an estimate On 100 sets but time is Money.But the end cost would be lower still.I agree 1000%not mixing the Bolts,its kind of a pet peeve of mine.Again good Point.
3.The extra holes are for More bolts(Or Rivets).The weight reduction isn't worth the Laser time.15 per rail is the Minimum,So far.The Test fitting is in about 5 hours,so the final number of Holes Most Likely will change.I'm Supplying the Minimum number of bolts,at least 30.The Holes are spaced at 3.75x the Diameter of the holes,so no loss of strength there.If Some wished to fill all of the Bolt Holes with Bolts,I was going to Supply all of the extra hard ware,at no additional cost(only the difference in shipping cost),but on request only.I think few will though.The washer PLates are Different than a standard round washer,at 1" long and 3/4" wide they spread out clamping force 3x farther than a round washer.Also the Hole In the Middle is smaller,so the the Bolt Head has less Chance Of Pulling through.I will Post a Pic(Of Course)of that detail Later today.
Greg
Bumping a Thread like That iS Bold,maybe Even Stupid.But,I was only having Fun. I've Been Back For sometime.
That Guy received everything He Paid for..Promptly.Most Of that rancor was 2 people being internet brave,also stupid.
Istarted this thread trying to Leave all of that Behind,Might be a lost Cause But I'm going to Give it a Shot.Why,Because this site Is Where the People are,not going to Lie.Would Like To Make enough to Put Me Back In a Miata.
Could We please try and mark it up to One guy feeling slighted,and another not used to people questioning an extraordinarily difficult portion of his Life?
Thanks.
Ok,
1.Lock washers are glaring omission on my part,point made and taken,Thanks.
2.The only reason Ive contemplated using SAE bolts Is for the cost.Im trying to Supply the Lowest cost possible ,so that more people can afford them.The price is estimated off of Only 20 sets.Im Sure "other"Brands Never order so few.I wanted to Get an estimate On 100 sets but time is Money.But the end cost would be lower still.I agree 1000%not mixing the Bolts,its kind of a pet peeve of mine.Again good Point.
3.The extra holes are for More bolts(Or Rivets).The weight reduction isn't worth the Laser time.15 per rail is the Minimum,So far.The Test fitting is in about 5 hours,so the final number of Holes Most Likely will change.I'm Supplying the Minimum number of bolts,at least 30.The Holes are spaced at 3.75x the Diameter of the holes,so no loss of strength there.If Some wished to fill all of the Bolt Holes with Bolts,I was going to Supply all of the extra hard ware,at no additional cost(only the difference in shipping cost),but on request only.I think few will though.The washer PLates are Different than a standard round washer,at 1" long and 3/4" wide they spread out clamping force 3x farther than a round washer.Also the Hole In the Middle is smaller,so the the Bolt Head has less Chance Of Pulling through.I will Post a Pic(Of Course)of that detail Later today.
Greg
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04-17-2015, 11:43 AM
#8
In turn,
Bumping a Thread like That iS Bold,maybe Even Stupid.But,I was only having Fun. I've Been Back For sometime.
That Guy received everything He Paid for..Promptly.Most Of that rancor was 2 people being internet brave,also stupid.
Istarted this thread trying to Leave all of that Behind,Might be a lost Cause But I'm going to Give it a Shot.Why,Because this site Is Where the People are,not going to Lie.Would Like To Make enough to Put Me Back In a Miata.
Could We please try and mark it up to One guy feeling slighted,and another not used to people questioning an extraordinarily difficult portion of his Life?
Thanks.
Ok,
1.Lock washers are glaring omission on my part,point made and taken,Thanks.
2.The only reason Ive contemplated using SAE bolts Is for the cost.Im trying to Supply the Lowest cost possible ,so that more people can afford them.The price is estimated off of Only 20 sets.Im Sure "other"Brands Never order so few.I wanted to Get an estimate On 100 sets but time is Money.But the end cost would be lower still.I agree 1000%not mixing the Bolts,its kind of a pet peeve of mine.Again good Point.
3.The extra holes are for More bolts(Or Rivets).The weight reduction isn't worth the Laser time.15 per rail is the Minimum,So far.The Test fitting is in about 5 hours,so the final number of Holes Most Likely will change.I'm Supplying the Minimum number of bolts,at least 30.The Holes are spaced at 3.75x the Diameter of the holes,so no loss of strength there.If Some wished to fill all of the Bolt Holes with Bolts,I was going to Supply all of the extra hard ware,at no additional cost(only the difference in shipping cost),but on request only.I think few will though.The washer PLates are Different than a standard round washer,at 1" long and 3/4" wide they spread out clamping force 3x farther than a round washer.Also the Hole In the Middle is smaller,so the the Bolt Head has less Chance Of Pulling through.I will Post a Pic(Of Course)of that detail Later today.
Greg
Bumping a Thread like That iS Bold,maybe Even Stupid.But,I was only having Fun. I've Been Back For sometime.
That Guy received everything He Paid for..Promptly.Most Of that rancor was 2 people being internet brave,also stupid.
Istarted this thread trying to Leave all of that Behind,Might be a lost Cause But I'm going to Give it a Shot.Why,Because this site Is Where the People are,not going to Lie.Would Like To Make enough to Put Me Back In a Miata.
Could We please try and mark it up to One guy feeling slighted,and another not used to people questioning an extraordinarily difficult portion of his Life?
Thanks.
Ok,
1.Lock washers are glaring omission on my part,point made and taken,Thanks.
2.The only reason Ive contemplated using SAE bolts Is for the cost.Im trying to Supply the Lowest cost possible ,so that more people can afford them.The price is estimated off of Only 20 sets.Im Sure "other"Brands Never order so few.I wanted to Get an estimate On 100 sets but time is Money.But the end cost would be lower still.I agree 1000%not mixing the Bolts,its kind of a pet peeve of mine.Again good Point.
3.The extra holes are for More bolts(Or Rivets).The weight reduction isn't worth the Laser time.15 per rail is the Minimum,So far.The Test fitting is in about 5 hours,so the final number of Holes Most Likely will change.I'm Supplying the Minimum number of bolts,at least 30.The Holes are spaced at 3.75x the Diameter of the holes,so no loss of strength there.If Some wished to fill all of the Bolt Holes with Bolts,I was going to Supply all of the extra hard ware,at no additional cost(only the difference in shipping cost),but on request only.I think few will though.The washer PLates are Different than a standard round washer,at 1" long and 3/4" wide they spread out clamping force 3x farther than a round washer.Also the Hole In the Middle is smaller,so the the Bolt Head has less Chance Of Pulling through.I will Post a Pic(Of Course)of that detail Later today.
Greg
The load spreads from the bolt head down and out, but not out very far. Washers that are way larger than the head don't buy you anything really. Just get the correct size washer from the chart and save yourself the laser money.
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04-17-2015, 12:38 PM
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Yeah.My Typing is bad.Who would have thought I have An English degree from Southern Illinois University.After a few conversations with some engineer friends of Mine,This method does Have Merit.As I have said,Testing will eventually bear this Out.
The Plan is to make enough to Pay the fees On sites I truly frequent,been paying on one for a Month.But,I've seen Nothing about fee's and the like on this site.Nor,do other"My shop made these" sale threads point to that.Besides,I have sold or offered you anything.
Rev.G-
The Plan is to make enough to Pay the fees On sites I truly frequent,been paying on one for a Month.But,I've seen Nothing about fee's and the like on this site.Nor,do other"My shop made these" sale threads point to that.Besides,I have sold or offered you anything.
Rev.G-
Last edited by Reverend Greg; 04-17-2015 at 12:48 PM.
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04-17-2015, 12:45 PM
#13
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Other than the $19 savings, what advantage will these offer over the established brand, which had the idea first, is proven - complete with documented gains in stiffness - is compatible with additional butterfly bracing, comes with high quality hardware without needing to be reminded about it from the customer, and is backed by a company which offers excellent customer service, established shipping network, and top tier spelling and capitalization?
Edit: Why do I get negative propped for asking a question? Is it from the competition, angry that I pointed out the $19 savings this product offers?
Edit: Why do I get negative propped for asking a question? Is it from the competition, angry that I pointed out the $19 savings this product offers?
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04-17-2015, 01:04 PM
#14
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The Initial estimated price Is less.Real world pricing has yet to be established.My hard ware will be sourced from McMaster-Carr.Any claims to advantages are theoretical at this point,as I have said several times,testing will bear this Out.I've had estimates ranging from 8% to 14% increase in torsional stiffness.And a commensurate increase in flexural stiffness.The weight reduction will be documented once the full production parts are made.
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04-17-2015, 04:52 PM
#15
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There are quite a few frame rail solutions out there. I think the only thing that will make another one better is if it was CHEAP. Like <100$ cheap.
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04-18-2015, 01:37 PM
#19
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Psh, I have no idea how to do it. I'm just saying I'm not going to buy a new unproven set of these unless they are ebay cheap. And I think a lot of people are the same way.
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04-18-2015, 02:39 PM
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To be honest,this has Been the most helpful comment of the thread. After the test fitting last night,and some constructive criticism,a few changes are being made. Primarily to reduce the Number of Holes to 10. And to make it clear,these are not for sale on this site. I hadn't seen the section regarding vendors fees,and That is truly my worst mistake. When the rails are Done,If Kenso24 posts pictures,thats when you can see the final product.
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