18 mpg
 

So yeah, my fuel economy sucks balls. I can get 21 MPG if the tank is mostly highway driving and I drive like a grandma.

I'll post up pics of my fuel and ignition maps shortly.

My setup is a 99 with a 2002 bottom end (10:1 compression), JR M45 @ 6-7psi, Adaptronic e420c tuned by a respectable tuner, JR water-to-air intercooler, JR headers, Magnaflow rear muffler (2.5" all the way), RX-7 460cc injectors recently cleaned and flow tested.

It made 167hp on a Dyno Dynamics.

I don't have any blowby and I have a catch can between my PCV valve and intake manifold, so it's as clean as a whistle.

I'm not using any fluids, everything seems fine engine wise. The only known mechanical problem is the gearbox - it sounds like it is out of a rally car.

Any ideas?

Fuel:

http://sites.google.com/site/timkent...ronic-fuel.png

Ignition:

http://sites.google.com/site/timkent...c-ignition.png

The supercharger bypass valve has recently been replaced, so that should be OK.

Is there an AFR target table on the Adaptronic? I don't see a big problem here, but perhaps you are just running rich at cruise. Or you have a big friction problem elsewhere, sticky brake, or that tranny noise.

What's your AFR at cruise?

I say your running too rich at cruise, I had the same problem before and I just leaned out my cruise rows to around 14.7-15

fuel table is meaningless. post AFR target table.

Is your ign locked at 10deg from setting your base timing? That would own your MPG.

:giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :giggle: :bowrofl:

Can you guys not rescale your tables to provide better resolution in the areas you actually use? Every adaptronic table I see goes up to 300kPa... Seems to me that it would be possible to gain at least 4 rows and 2 columns towards increasing resolution and helping the table transition in areas where VE does not change linearly.

We need to see target afr's and a log or two of cruise as well as wot. fuel maps alone are useless.....That said I'm still working on fine tuning my fueling, and its 26-29 (city) driving normally, and about 20-25 getting on it and boosting all the time. Not bad but there's room for improvement imo.

Pretty sure we can't change what kpa it goes up to. I may be wrong

you can, but then you have to re-tune... it's just a pain.

it's still evenly spaced.

You can't just change the max kpa value to slightly over your max target? Won't the graphs just fill in with the interpolated values?...I guess those would be slightly off though.


http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/251/maxaz.jpg

It fills it in TO THE BEST OF ITS ABILITY. which, quite frankly is not good enough.

I tried to mess with mine, but gave up cause its just not worth the hassle.

it does nothing. if you change that number to some smaller value, the left hand colum will change and that's it. you'll seriously overfuel your shit.

it will jack up your spark table

it will also jack up your AFR targets.

and what sucks most is that there is no FAST way to fix it. You have to go in and edit every cell individually.

so as much fun as that sounds...

/\ haha I already went through my tables 3 times EACH cell individually when ironing out the fuel/spark the last few times.:facepalm:

SCREW THAT lol

Is it ok if I am tuning for 180kpa and set my my kpa value just above that? Is it when your change that value after you've already done tuning that software screws up that value?

I'm aiming for stoich at cruise, because I'm just running a narrowband sensor I can't target anything else anyway. Here's my target table:

http://sites.google.com/site/timkent...target-afr.png

It could be the transmission I guess, the brakes are all good though.

I'll do some datalogging and report back, thanks guys!

Narrow band = completely useless

14.7 AFR at 150 kPa = fucking insane

That's the worst afr targets I've seen....Your AFT + Narrow band = Fail at life

I'm getting around 19mpg too. I just haven't leaned it out yet since I'm not confident about the base timing map.

HOLY SHIT those afr targets are fucked up

The target table behaves completely different when used with a narrowband sensor. I've got mine to go to open loop above 85 kPa, and anything that isn't set to a target of 14.7 is ignored by the Adaptronic.

I've already had all the cells tuned on a stead state dyno so I think having a wideband O2 sensor is bordering on useless now, unless I want to target a 15:1 cruise or something.

If I was plugging in an wideband O2 sensor into the Adaptronic then yes it would be fail city.

This is what I came up with on my old car (LC-1 equipped) which gave good economy:

http://sites.google.com/site/timkent...fr-targets.png

It's not really relevant for this setup, as discussed above re narrowband sensor.

What are your startup enrichments? My mpg went up as I've adjusted mine.

I still only get ~20mpg unless I baby it, but I'm almost always in boost at ~75+ mph with lots of hills.

I know - get rid of that POS and get another SE!
Plenty for sale atm.

Stu

Here's a link to a datalog from tonight:
http://sites.google.com/site/timkent/5-03-2010_2104.csv

It appears that the narrowband O2 is hovering around stoich at cruise like it should.

http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/46...600x600Q85.jpg

That sexy thing gets me about 27mpg.

Damn, that's a lot of AFR target points, nice.

I know I'm jealous.

You guys are silly with your low resolution maps

Attachment 199724

yes your map is very high resolution. what the fuck is a millbar and does thsi "hondata" make miata stuff? :P

hehe

Thats actually Crome, which is FREE!
You can re-chip the factory ECU, burn a Crome tune onto the chip, and you have the resolution of a standalone AEM and it only cost you 30 bucks.

Now why couldnt mazda have made their ECUs so capable?
:facepalm:

It has inches/psi of vac/boost on the row below millibar :loser:

We wire up after market ecu's, why couldn't we use a honda ecu? They can be reprogrammed so it shouldn't matter as long as the cylinder count is the same. Or does honda use some wierd cam/crank signal? Then we could have powered by honda stickers too!

I've thought long and hard about using a 1g EPROM ecu from a DSM. I know it is possible because 1.People have run sr20's on them before. and 2. From an electronics standpoint, our cars are basically 99% identical to a 1g dsm. The ignitors, the coilpacks, the cas, everything. They are infinitely adjustable, have built in knock detection(probably worthess for us due to bore size) And can run in speed density mode with a simple flash. Plus the stock ECU ROM only takes up 1/2 the space on the chip, so there is plenty of room to write custom code (to double the available resolution for example, I've done it, works well) Add an ostrich into the mix and you have a very slick tuning solution. I think it would be super easy to get it drivable too because once you change the main VE maps, everything (startup and AE included) are modified by changing a the injector size globally (you can edit deadtime too :) ).


Actually in Japan, they did. Japanese miatas used an ecu that had a separate ROM chip on it. You could change the fuel/timing curves, injector size, etc. For whatever reason, when they brought these cars to America, they integrated the ROM into the CPU and noone to my knowledge has come up with a way to break it out into something flashable.

You could make a honda ECU wok on a miata, but you would have to mount the honda distributor on the front of a cam gear.
It has to go on the front of the cam because honda engines spin backwards, and they have the distributor on the back of the cam.

I actually thought about doing, but it would probably prove to be pretty difficult.

Why cant we get these ECUs? and do you know if there is already software developed to write a tune to them?

I wonder how hard this would be to fake with the CAS or a trigger wheel...

We can, and there is. Let me try to find the link, I haven't seen it for a long time. I'm pretty sure I got it deep from within the bowels of M.Net.

Bingo.

The company is called GRID Japan.

Some info:
ROMƒ`ƒ…�[ƒjƒ“ƒO—p’ljÁŠî”‚̎æ•t
ROM????

(all in japanese :vash:)

And the jackpot:
Japanese Performance Parts and ROM Tuning GRID


Not even sure if they still make the miata version.

We need to make a thread for this stuff

My buddy (Tw34k on here) is very experienced with both electronics and honda tuning, so he and I may be able to figure out if the honda ecu can accept a trigger wheel or CAS input.
We just have to figure out how what the honda dizzy reads.

Even if you could only get the honda ecu to control fuel, it would still give a lot of tune-ability.

I wish I wasn't so tied up in my current projects...and I had an extra miata. I would love to get one running on a DSM ecu...

Im pretty certain your duty cycles are in the 200's lol, altho im aware its just a quickie map for demonstration purposes.

Imho, If i had a miata id much prefer the honda ecu to the dsm.

240cc injectors on 30psi :giggle:

Fuck me talk about a thread derailment!

guess u guys haven't been following the Specmiata thread. Spec Miatas guys have long been running ECU with adjustable fuel and timing.

Spec Miata Community: Modified ECU/Computer

So before you all went off on a tangent, did you take a look at my cruise datalog?

All you have to do is load that into mega log viewer, show the RPM, MAP, and AFR (maybe timing and air/water temps in a separate graph) and post a screen grab of the few seconds of interest and we can just analyze it here without doing all the work for you.

within minutes you'll have responses.

yah but theyre using the POS USDM ECU that doesnt allow for any more than mild fuel tweaks.

You can tune a honda ECU to support 30 psi of boost and 600hp...

What about this guy? Read a bit further into the thread when a user dynotronics1 comes in

Advancing the Timing on a '99 Miata - MX-5 Miata Forum

I don't really know what to look for, my AFR log is showing the narrowband is doing the right thing during cruise and idle. When the car was on the dyno we dialed it in so it had 14.7:1 in cruise and 12:1 when fully up it in boost, that was going by the Dyno Dynamics wideband built into the dyno.

Here is the thing with these other options though. You are paying for only the fuel and spark control with rewired ECU's. You mise well get yourself one of those Apexi piggy backs if your going that route, it would be nearly as powerful.

The power in the Adaptronic is the other features. You are not paying for just a spark and fuel map control alone. You are paying for fuel autotune, boost by gear, traction control, launch control, fully configurable auxiliary outputs, turbo timer functions, electronic blow off valve functions, electronic wastegate functions. An electronic wastegate controller alone is what 300? The honda ECU's can't do those things, an eprom on the stock ECU can't do those things.

Having gone down the road of splice here, bandaid there, it gets much more complicated much more quickly as you want to add features. Even if you did switch to one of these other systems the learning curve and MPG, all that, is still going to be dependent your ability to tune, and I would bet they don't have fuel auto tune to help you when you start out. You would literally start with a blank slate, blank fuel maps, and probably have to work something really different into the triggering mechanism of a cross ECU swap as well.

I'm obviously a supporter of an aftermarket solution to this because I sell it, but from any point of view the stock ECU EPROM or the cross brand ECU swap is going to be tough, custom, and take alot of expertise. I've been dealing with standalones for around 5 years now, and I wouldn't even want to try to do something like that. I could see Matt doing something crazy and getting it right, but it would be extremely complicated and for what gain? You spend 200 hours on figuring out how to get that thing in and even at minimum wage you could of bought an Adaptronic.

I've spent a bit more time on this and noticed in my logs that the O2 sensor wasn't aiming for stoich at idle. This is what I had set for my closed loop fuel control:

http://sites.google.com/site/timkent...el-control.png

I hadn't paid any attention to the advanced parameters section in the past, but I knew closed loop was working OK during cruise so I read up on it:

If the "Low RPM threshold" is set to anything above 0, it will use those advanced settings up until the RPM you specify, so essentially I had closed loop disabled below 1300 RPM. :loser:

These are the changes from above as per recommendations in the manual:

Proportional Gain: 2
Integral Gain: 1
Maximum integral correction: 8%
Low RPM threshold: 0

Since the change the logs now show the car aiming for stoich at idle instead of just showing full rich all the time.

I don't think this was the main cause of my poor fuel economy, but it certainly wasn't helping.

Now you can get back to derailing this thread, fuckers! :vash:

We actually started a new thread so you could have yours back. :fawk:

they are the same company. they can support FI.

I fitted an LC-1 to keep you fools quiet. I'm cruising at 15:1 AFR but my economy still sucks balls. I'm beginning to think it's the weight of my right foot.

Fit a boost gauge to your intake plumbing and see if you're still boosting at cruise?

The throttle is before the blower so it would read the same as my MAP sensor.

Hey Saboteur could I have a copy of your map, your fuel and your ignition tables look so much better than mine lol.