1st tank of e85. IM IN WAY OVER MY HEAD. PLEASE help me.E85 USERS GET IN HERE!!!!!!!! - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 08-15-2010, 10:14 PM   #21
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Couple of things. And this is of course with 0 knowledge of your ECU, just general engine knowledge.

If one of my cars has ever not started, and then I return to it hours later and it starts right up, 90% of the time it has been due to fouled plugs, because I was giving it too much gas. Replaced plugs and dialed fuel back, and it'd be fine. This happened a lot while I was running on bandaids.

If one of my cars has ever worked fine at one temperature, and then gone to crap when it's warmed up (this has happened twice), its been either a coolant temperature sensor, or a air temperature sensor. Are you sure the little green plug in the back of the head is on correctly?

Cool down with your tune, look at some of the basic things first.
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Old 08-15-2010, 11:06 PM   #22
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I've been out of town for the last week on business in Florida. Actually tuning some cars down there, alot of fun, unfortunately I didn't do any E85 tuning.

The thing with switching to E85 is that you pretty much have to start from scratch with injector maps. So cranking fuel... off. Transient fuel... off. Fuel map... off. Even the ideal AFR's are different for E85 (14.7 isn't stoich anymore boss!)

It really doesn't have anything to do with the ECU either, you'll run into the same thing regardless of what ECU you go with. This is a new frontier, and I would bet you could find more tuners familiar with nitromethane then you will with e85 at this point. It really also goes outside the realm of engine tuning and goes to engine combustion dynamics. You are not only switching the octane of your fuel, but you also are changing the ratio of air to fuel that is optimal, and the flame speed. Switching to E85 is just as big of a switch as it would to switch from gasoline to nitromethane, and thats the real truth of it. Its going to take patience and dedication to get everything right.

The best thing is to really take it to ANY tuner if your getting that frustrated though. You don't need an Adaptronic specialized tuner to do the work for you. All you need is a guy that knows what pulsewidth, cranking fuel, and standard starting enrichments are. If he doesn't know what that is he doesn't need to be near your car in the first place with any engine management. I am in the middle of my E85 conversion now, so I don't have basemaps to offer. What I can say is that cold start and hot start are the hardest to accomplish with any new fuel maps. Once those are completed the rest will be easier.

There are many reasons why you see inconsistency with starting.
  • Ports have to be wet before the engine will fire. So if you crank and crank and crank and then it starts you are likely not using enough fuel
  • As an engine sits hot the fuel quickly evaporates off the walls of the port and creates a gaseous cloud. Depending on how long you let the vehicle set before you start it it may cause the fuel requirements to be higher or lower. This makes the values around operating temperature the most important.
  • E85 is hard to light off. 110 octane fuel means it burns like diesel, not gasoline. Stronger spark, or a narrowed gap are required. A COP conversion is highly recommended for both starting and boosting
  • Shoot for a calculated max power AFR on a gasoline calibrated meter of 11.5 for MLT(Max lean torque) or 10.5 for MRT(Max Rich Torque)
  • Idle AFR should be around 14.7-15.0.

I'm not really sure where to go from there. I think just about any other ECU tuner would give you the same advice. If you need specifics just drop me an email or another PM.
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Old 08-16-2010, 12:53 AM   #23
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I don't know anything about E85 but the slow uploads could be that you somehow got set to modbus 500ms instead of 100ms. Check at the bottom of the "Port" menu.
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:35 AM   #24
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I did convert my previous Hydra / RC550 setup to E85 but had none of the problems described here. Different ECU I know but this should be the same for all ECU's.

I would make sure you ran 100% perfect on gas before switching.
On the hydra I upped the map 30% and just went ahead with autotuning.
I ended up removing most of the fuel on the non boosted rows. On idle and cruise there is not that much difference in fuel. I did not touch the crank settings. It started perfectly in everything between 10-30 C.

What I would do:
1. Go back to gas and make sure everything works. cranking, in boost, AFR readings, autotuning, IAT, coolat temps etc.
2. Fill it up with E85 and add 30% extra fuel to boosted rows. Add less to nonboosted rows and idle. Do not touch crank settings.
3. If it wont start add a small amount of fuel to cranking enrichment.
4. When idling immediately check AFR readings. It should be tuned to the same AF targets as for gasoline since the ECU don't have a clue your actually running a fuel with less O2 and needing about 10:1 for stoichiometric.
It could also be an idea to tune idle with the NBO2 since they are more exact at at stoichiometric under 1500 rpm.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:06 AM   #25
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Are you using VE Tuning while cranking? I wonder if the VE calculation is good for gasoline only.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:30 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicksdigmiatas View Post
You need to get drunk tonight Vlad. Maybe you will smash the son of a bitch and have to buy a new computer. Have you seen this? Oh, and i am diggin the eyelids.

https://www.miataturbo.net/adaptronic-63/need-help-tuning-adaptronic-rotrex-e85-42698/
thanx. lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Couple of things. And this is of course with 0 knowledge of your ECU, just general engine knowledge.

If one of my cars has ever not started, and then I return to it hours later and it starts right up, 90% of the time it has been due to fouled plugs, because I was giving it too much gas. Replaced plugs and dialed fuel back, and it'd be fine. This happened a lot while I was running on bandaids.

If one of my cars has ever worked fine at one temperature, and then gone to crap when it's warmed up (this has happened twice), its been either a coolant temperature sensor, or a air temperature sensor. Are you sure the little green plug in the back of the head is on correctly?

Cool down with your tune, look at some of the basic things first.
See this is what I thought as well, so I dropped in brand new plugs on saturday right before I went out to tune it.

They are gapped at .035 though, I'll drop that down to .025 or possibly .020 and see if that helps. Thanx
Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I've been out of town for the last week on business in Florida. Actually tuning some cars down there, alot of fun, unfortunately I didn't do any E85 tuning.

The thing with switching to E85 is that you pretty much have to start from scratch with injector maps. So cranking fuel... off. Transient fuel... off. Fuel map... off. Even the ideal AFR's are different for E85 (14.7 isn't stoich anymore boss!)

It really doesn't have anything to do with the ECU either, you'll run into the same thing regardless of what ECU you go with. This is a new frontier, and I would bet you could find more tuners familiar with nitromethane then you will with e85 at this point. It really also goes outside the realm of engine tuning and goes to engine combustion dynamics. You are not only switching the octane of your fuel, but you also are changing the ratio of air to fuel that is optimal, and the flame speed. Switching to E85 is just as big of a switch as it would to switch from gasoline to nitromethane, and thats the real truth of it. Its going to take patience and dedication to get everything right.

The best thing is to really take it to ANY tuner if your getting that frustrated though. You don't need an Adaptronic specialized tuner to do the work for you. All you need is a guy that knows what pulsewidth, cranking fuel, and standard starting enrichments are. If he doesn't know what that is he doesn't need to be near your car in the first place with any engine management. I am in the middle of my E85 conversion now, so I don't have basemaps to offer. What I can say is that cold start and hot start are the hardest to accomplish with any new fuel maps. Once those are completed the rest will be easier.

There are many reasons why you see inconsistency with starting.
  • Ports have to be wet before the engine will fire. So if you crank and crank and crank and then it starts you are likely not using enough fuel
  • As an engine sits hot the fuel quickly evaporates off the walls of the port and creates a gaseous cloud. Depending on how long you let the vehicle set before you start it it may cause the fuel requirements to be higher or lower. This makes the values around operating temperature the most important.
  • E85 is hard to light off. 110 octane fuel means it burns like diesel, not gasoline. Stronger spark, or a narrowed gap are required. A COP conversion is highly recommended for both starting and boosting
  • Shoot for a calculated max power AFR on a gasoline calibrated meter of 11.5 for MLT(Max lean torque) or 10.5 for MRT(Max Rich Torque)
  • Idle AFR should be around 14.7-15.0.

I'm not really sure where to go from there. I think just about any other ECU tuner would give you the same advice. If you need specifics just drop me an email or another PM.
Thank you for your input.
I'll call around and see if I can get some pointers from some e85 tuners around here. Its very common here so hopefully I find someone that's not too unfamiliar with miata's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboRoach View Post
I don't know anything about E85 but the slow uploads could be that you somehow got set to modbus 500ms instead of 100ms. Check at the bottom of the "Port" menu.
so wait, its supposed to be 100 and not 500?

HOLY **** seriously?
I checked and its at 500, even though I NEVER touched that setting ever.
I'll change it to 100 after work.

Oh boy if that's the only problem and this fixes It you have just made my day
Quote:
Originally Posted by dgmorr View Post
Are you using VE Tuning while cranking? I wonder if the VE calculation is good for gasoline only.
VE tuning? you mean "rapid learn" or "slow converge"?
I don't think adaptronic has "VE tuning".
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:31 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arildh View Post
I did convert my previous Hydra / RC550 setup to E85 but had none of the problems described here. Different ECU I know but this should be the same for all ECU's.

I would make sure you ran 100% perfect on gas before switching.
On the hydra I upped the map 30% and just went ahead with autotuning.
I ended up removing most of the fuel on the non boosted rows. On idle and cruise there is not that much difference in fuel. I did not touch the crank settings. It started perfectly in everything between 10-30 C.

What I would do:
1. Go back to gas and make sure everything works. cranking, in boost, AFR readings, autotuning, IAT, coolat temps etc.
2. Fill it up with E85 and add 30% extra fuel to boosted rows. Add less to nonboosted rows and idle. Do not touch crank settings.
3. If it wont start add a small amount of fuel to cranking enrichment.
4. When idling immediately check AFR readings. It should be tuned to the same AF targets as for gasoline since the ECU don't have a clue your actually running a fuel with less O2 and needing about 10:1 for stoichiometric.
It could also be an idea to tune idle with the NBO2 since they are more exact at at stoichiometric under 1500 rpm.
Wow so you didn't touch cranking settings AT ALL? That is indeed interesting. I have my old map, I'll pop that in and give it a shot then.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:42 AM   #28
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I didn't read the whole thread, I'm too lazy.

Those plugs were waaaay black for E85. Mine were like honey, or a bit lighter.

I literally just changed my reqfuel in MS1 to account for the bigger motor (pulsewidth bigger), bigger injectors (pulsewidth smaller), and E85 (pulsewidth bigger), and it started right up. I changed nothing with cranking settings, etc. I assume that cranking setting changed by the % change of reqfuel. Have you put your cranking settings back to where they were with gas, and tried that?

After I got it started, I loaded it on the trailer and took it to the tuner. He only messed with the fuel maps, and at that it wasn't all THAT much. He just leaned it out a bit and added like 5* timing to get mbt.

I still really don't know the big deal about E85 v gas. It's all just fuel, you just have to add more alky to get stoic.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:43 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arildh View Post
I did convert my previous Hydra / RC550 setup to E85 but had none of the problems described here. Different ECU I know but this should be the same for all ECU's.

I would make sure you ran 100% perfect on gas before switching.
On the hydra I upped the map 30% and just went ahead with autotuning.
I ended up removing most of the fuel on the non boosted rows. On idle and cruise there is not that much difference in fuel. I did not touch the crank settings. It started perfectly in everything between 10-30 C.

What I would do:
1. Go back to gas and make sure everything works. cranking, in boost, AFR readings, autotuning, IAT, coolat temps etc.
2. Fill it up with E85 and add 30% extra fuel to boosted rows. Add less to nonboosted rows and idle. Do not touch crank settings.
3. If it wont start add a small amount of fuel to cranking enrichment.
4. When idling immediately check AFR readings. It should be tuned to the same AF targets as for gasoline since the ECU don't have a clue your actually running a fuel with less O2 and needing about 10:1 for stoichiometric.
It could also be an idea to tune idle with the NBO2 since they are more exact at at stoichiometric under 1500 rpm.
What he said.
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Old 08-16-2010, 01:09 PM   #30
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Right here, bottom left. If I select this running gas, I have no problem starting like stock. Before this I had so many problems. I don't know if the calculation for this is made only for gasoline or not.

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Old 08-16-2010, 04:18 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
so wait, its supposed to be 100 and not 500?

HOLY **** seriously?
I checked and its at 500, even though I NEVER touched that setting ever.
I'll change it to 100 after work.

Oh boy if that's the only problem and this fixes It you have just made my day
yup 100ms. That's the delay setting for how frequently commands/data are sent.
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Old 08-18-2010, 02:22 AM   #32
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OK first of all:
THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU X 10000000
To those that suggested I change modbus from 500 to 100.

It uploads as fast as before now, making my life SOOOO much easier



Second of all:
It looks like I've made a bit of progress.

Today I took out the new plugs, regapped them from .035 to .025, stuck em back in (they were pretty darn clean still), and fired it up.

Couple things:
1) I think I had my "crank fuel" entirely too rich. Looking over Savs maps I noticed that his crank fuel settings didn't really change from pump gas to e85 (unless I'm reading the maps wrong, that AEM is a tricky lil **** and I'm a complete noob to it). Dialed them down. Tried it, still very sluggish to start.
2) I adjusted the "crank timing BTDC" back to 40* from 10* again.
Tried it again. It fired up fairly decently.


Is that the "magic key" here? Throwing tons of timing at it when cranking? Cause it seems to be working.

3) I went through the fuel map again and REALLY smoothed it over. It was pretty damn rough.

4) adjusted the idle ms from 11 to 67.

That's about it.

Took it for a little spin, and boy was it night and day difference betwen now and a few days ago.

I'm VERY HAPPY and WOULD LIKE TO THANK EVERYONE WHO HELPED.

I'm definitely a long way away from getting it "good" or "perfect" but I think I made progress and am on my way there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgmorr View Post
Right here, bottom left. If I select this running gas, I have no problem starting like stock. Before this I had so many problems. I don't know if the calculation for this is made only for gasoline or not.

HMMMM

Never even noticed that little guy. I'll definitely give it a shot. If it helps make it like OEM startup I'll be jumping with joy
Its already better now but there's always room for improvement.


THANX AGAIN GUYS
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Old 08-18-2010, 07:49 AM   #33
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I had the same frustration with my setup, so I dropped the car off with my tuner and told him to call me when it was done.

My cranking ignition timing is now set to zero degrees, the dwell increased, and the cranking fuel values tuned.

It's still not perfect but it's livable. In hindsight I kinda wish I went down the Haltech Interceptor path. It would have been cheaper, less dyno time, and probably a better result.
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Old 08-18-2010, 09:25 PM   #34
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my turn. mwahaha
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:07 PM   #35
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if you want my map, PM me.

I didn't change anything going from gas to E85, other than adding more fuel across the board. only issue I had was cold start up, which I fixed with help here.
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