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Old 07-29-2009, 02:57 PM   #61
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Here you go. Now the second fan will kick on at the same temperature and map reading as the first fan, plus it will kick on if the A/C is activated.
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Old 07-29-2009, 02:59 PM   #62
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Thank you
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:19 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Here you go. Now the second fan will kick on at the same temperature and map reading as the first fan, plus it will kick on if the A/C is activated.
Stealing for personal use.
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:21 PM   #64
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I adjusted the knock per 1 degree to 70 Stein. Will check if that helps in a little bit

And do me a favor and post up whatever you find wrong with the map. Anything you think needs adjusting just tell me so I can look over it.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:26 PM   #65
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GOOD NEWS/BAD NEWS

The Good:
The car pulls smooth now that I set knock retard to 70 per 1*, thanx Stein
Idle is a bit better and now high 800's to low 900's. Not perfect yet (still jumps around every now and then, but I'll work on it more) thanx tedsmx5
Fans are coming on together and the temps are now MUCH better. The hottest I could get it was 110* compared to 125 last time I drove the car. Thanx TravisR

The Bad:
As I was trying to make a log for Stein to see if I get the same knock in the 4500-5000 rpm area as he does I toasted my clutch. Well, not yet toasted but now every time I go into full boost in 3rd-5th at any rpm it just spins the clutch: the poor fella is on its way out
I guess I'm making enough power finally to overwhelm it though, so thats kinda cool I guess lol
I have an ACT 6 puck waiting to go in that I bought from ZX tex so that should be in soon (I hope).

All in all not a bad day
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:58 PM   #66
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Well, soonor or later meant sooner for you. Enjoy the clutch job. Glad the setting change helped. I was pretty sure that's what it was.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:48 PM   #67
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Sorry to hear you toasted your clutch, but alas it is inevitable. IIRC mine started slipping at around 8psi as well (with the 2560). That 6-puck is good to go so you will be golden after you get it installed. It grabs like a ****.

Buy the LONGEST 1/2" socket extension you can find, and an impact swivel. It will make getting the trans off much easier.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:16 PM   #68
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18psi,
Sorry to hear about the clutch
Why do you have the fans on with a boost of 160kpa? Hopefully your car will be moving faster than the air flow created by the fans. And why do you have 2 AC outputs plus the fan? I agree in principle with Travis R about “identity function” but when I was setting up my ecu I didn’t want anything changing the trim, all those niceties can be added later (after the car idling) use the KISS principle I say. At best we are home mechanics taking weeks to do what a Tradesman could do in a afternoon, ambient temp may only change a few degrees while you are adjusting your idle so the change in AFR will be small.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:26 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedsmx5 View Post
18psi,
Why do you have the fans on with a boost of 160kpa?
Ted
That is something I was playing around with, so he probably inherited it from me since he is using my map. The idea was to have the fans come on while in boost to pull more air through the FMIC.

FWIW now that I have a 'v-mount' setup (IC and rad in parallel, not in series) I will not be using it anymore.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:29 PM   #70
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Quote:
Why do you have the fans on with a boost of 160kpa? Hopefully your car will be moving faster than the air flow created by the fans.
Please explain what you mean by this and how do I fix it?


It is over 100F here the past few months. Even with low boost like 160kpa my car really heats up. Before I made the heat shield a few days ago and had Travis enable the fans to come on together It would shoot to 120F and keep climbing if I kept beating on it. I don't know why I can't keep the car cool. After the heat shield and the fans kicking in together I'm at a safe 108F and happy.

The ac outputs? I have no idea. I wanted to change all the outputs to be EXACTLY like yours but a bunch of the stuff was different. Since mine is an NB and you're an NA I just let TravisR adjust it for me. It does what I want it to now, so I'm happy.

I have adjusted my warmed up idle to 900 instead of 1100, thanx for that
I still have a few questions about idle though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedsmx5 View Post

Use your live gauges to ensure the trim is at 0 when you start and zero your air temp correction (you don’t want any corrections or trim changing your base map when tuning)

Get your idle right first, at this stage set your PID gain to 0 also set the recovery effort to 0 for the moment, run in fuel control in open loop (you don’t want your ecu adjusting the trim while your tuning). The Mazda ecu PWM frequency is around 450Hz so I have set mine to 500Hz for the ICV (any lower and they buzz).
Next, on the same idle page of WARI program set your “Base Idle Value (coolant temp)” lower than you need to idle.
Use the “minium value” in the “Overall control panel to raise and lower the cars idle while you tune (just like you would on a carburetted engine with the idle stop screw) . Then tune the map at idle to 14.7 afr, put the headlights on high beam to tune the idle under load, also if you need to lower or raise the injector time. Lower or raise the surrounding cells (left, right, up and down) as they have an overall effect on the cell your working on. You will have to go back and forth a few times to get it right so be patient, mine idle at 850rpm all the time.
I hope I’m not telling you how to suck eggs here as I don’t know your knowledge base (mine was 0 (on ecu’s) when I started but I am an electronics tech which helps a lot)
When on the tuning page if you press the space bar the active fuel cell will highlight in grey.
Setting up the AC and electrical load next time.
Good luck, the journey is half the fun.
Ted
When I start the car and its idling, the trim is at about 3-4%. What do I do to get it to be zero? If I change my "master trim" to -4% the gauges read 0% , what I want, but then later when the car warms up it goes to -4%, so I have to change "master trim" back to 0 and the gauges then read 0.

The ecu is in "rapid learning" for both fuel and ignition, I should set the fuel to open loop when its idling and I'm tuning idle/?

Where is PID and recovery? What tab/button (you can tell I'm such a noob)

What do I set my "base idle value coolant temp" to?

Anyhow, I'll be doing lots more tuning tonight, since its hot as ***** outside. It will have to be just idle and off boost tuning though due to the clutch

Thanx for the suggestions Ted
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:32 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
That is something I was playing around with, so he probably inherited it from me since he is using my map. The idea was to have the fans come on while in boost to pull more air through the FMIC.

FWIW now that I have a 'v-mount' setup (IC and rad in parallel, not in series) I will not be using it anymore.
I am using a tweaked version of your map. So whatever you were experimenting with is now done to my car

What does he mean by that? and more importantly, how do I undo it
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:57 PM   #72
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DO NOT use the left turn signal while the radio and hazard flashers are on. It advances timing 30 degrees, sets the EBC duty cycle to 100%, and turns off the boost limiter. I call it the self-destruct mode

But seriously, it is one of the virtual outputs that is OR-ed with the fan outputs. I'll have to get in there and look at my setup to give you a play-by-play on how to deactivate the fan-on-in-boost thing. In the mean time, no harm done, it just turns on the fans whenever you are boosting.
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:02 PM   #73
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DO NOT use the left turn signal while the radio and hazard flashers are on. It advances timing 30 degrees, sets the EBC duty cycle to 100%, and turns off the boost limiter. I call it the self-destruct mode
LOL isn't that the same sequence that triggered the explosion in the ford pinto?
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Old 07-29-2009, 08:04 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
DO NOT use the left turn signal while the radio and hazard flashers are on. It advances timing 30 degrees, sets the EBC duty cycle to 100%, and turns off the boost limiter. I call it the self-destruct mode

But seriously, it is one of the virtual outputs that is OR-ed with the fan outputs. I'll have to get in there and look at my setup to give you a play-by-play on how to deactivate the fan-on-in-boost thing. In the mean time, no harm done, it just turns on the fans whenever you are boosting.
And fries your clutch too?

Alright, when you get a chance let me know what I need to do. If its not harming anything you can take your time
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Old 07-29-2009, 09:16 PM   #75
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LOL isn't that the same sequence that triggered the explosion in the ford pinto?
Slightly different. It was the RIGHT turn signal that cause the Pinto to explode
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Old 07-30-2009, 06:38 AM   #76
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If any one disagrees please put your case, I to want to learn more.

First thing you do each time you want to change things is save the current ecu’s file, if you do this you have a fall back position and no tears (the date is a good reference name).
Run open loop fuel and timing, we are setting up the base idle AFR only, that 4% trim seems to be coming from the “Correction for air temp” field (due to the hot weather 30deg C?). Make that air correction table 0 trim for all MAT, you can retype them in later if you need to (mine are still 0).
Open the “Live gauges” windows.
Start your engine, drive around and wait for the car to reach running temp. 80deg C.
Should now have 0 trim, zero the PID gains, set the “Base Idle Value (coolant temp)” to 50 for the WT cells 55 to 95deg C. Use the “Minimum value” to adjust your idle to say 900 rpm.
Open the Tuning window, display the fuel 1 map, tap the space bar and a cell will highlight grey this is the idle cell your working on. But (there is always a but) the cell above, below, left and right influence your cell, so try a little adjusting around your cell also, keep the map planar and smoothish.
Aim for 14.7AFR
You will have to adjust the “Minimum value” to idle at 900 rpm again.
When you are happy with this cell transfer the “Minimum value” to your “Base Idle Value (coolant temp)” WT cells 55 to 95deg C.
Reduce the “Minimum value” to 5 below what it is now, the car should be idling smoothly.

Turn on the heater fan to high head lights on high beam, you may need to adjust your “extra effort for elec load to keep the engine at 950 rpm.
Tune the cell highlighted now after you tap the sace bar, now do the same thing with AC as more load , watch your engine temp.
Save your new ecu file! Keep you old one too.
May I suggest AFR of 14.7 in the 0 and 75kPa 1000 to 7000rpm “Target AFR” window.

Ted.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:27 AM   #77
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See if you tuned it that way you've got problems though. Zeroing trims before the tune is set forces you to make sure the identity marker for the trims start at zero for all the enviromental values that were going on that day. Air temperature being one of those. Here is the reason:

If the trims are left in ontop of the 3D map the pulsewidths will always correspond to 1 AFR regardless of what is going on outside the car. Each trim that is added is just another diminension to your 3-d map that is automatically corrected for. This is because the computer first looks up MAP and RPM. Then it finds what temperature(or other enviromental variable) and it scales these maps up or down. When any value is changed in the 3D map then it is corrected with respect to temperature (or other enviromental variable) held constant with respect to RPM and MAP. In essence your map is now 4D (or 5d or 6d) instead of just 3D.

If you take the temperature correction off you have a 3-d fuel map, which is not compensating for temperature changes. So really you have a 3D map that incorporates temperature changes directly in it without there being a temperature axis. When your done tuning and the trims are set then you will have to re-index the 3D map on the fourth axis of temperature. What I mean by that is that if you tuned the vehicle at 35*C day then you have to list that temperature as the identity temperature by putting the correction under 35 as zero. Then you ramp the temperature from that point to account for changes. Otherwise the whole map will be incorrectly scaled when the trims are put in.

So now describing what specific elements do in the temperature correction chart. The zero element is the element known as identity. At the temperature the correction is set to 0 the map is not increased or decreased. The zero value temperature is what is actually reflected on the map in your fuel tuning tab. For all values greater then zero even though you don't see it, the whole map is scaled up creating an infinite number of maps which normalize the pulsewidth in respect to air density. This makes locks the AFR's with respect air temperature. For all values less the zero the same occurs but the map pulsewidths are scaled up.

The reason it is impossible for these values to actually effect tuning is because in the 4D map of MAP, RPM, and Temperature the computer calculates temperature last. So these are never even seen by the rapid tuning or you. In effect they don't exist to anything but the injectors. By disabling the temperature correction it would be a severe hinderence to tuning a turbocharged car because the IAT reading may jump 70*C in a few minutes. That could mean the car would go 15-18% rich. If you manually corrected for this, and put an intercooler on, then your car would run 15-18% lean seeing as how the 70*C intake temperature is no longer there. If you leave on the fourth (temperature) axis during tuning, then increases in pulsewidth only take account for pressure and RPM. They do not accomodate any temperature, and thats exactly what you want, because the fuel map isn't called RPM, MAP, and random non-uniform temperature correction. You have an IAT sensor that corrects for these changes in IAT. Changing intercoolers at this point would probably not even require a retune, until the boost **** grimlins get ahold of you.

Last edited by TravisR; 07-30-2009 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Edited for my poor poor grammar structure. I should never write in the morning.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:29 AM   #78
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I've yet to see an ECU properly handle MAT trim. I'm not sure why. It's a fixed equation and should be the same in every engine system. Giving the user a place to **** it up is silly.

And absolutely YES it needs to be SET FIRST before tuning. It should be a straight line that approximates the change in density of air--so that as you slide up and down the temp scale, it corrects the fuel injected to accomodate that change in density of air. more air = more fuel and so on.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:00 PM   #79
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Travis, good explanation. Makes sense to me.

OK 18psi here is the deal with the fans coming on in boost. Here is how it is set up. Go to the 'Aux Out' tab in WARI.
- Aux 6 is the output to the cooling fan relay. I have it set as an 'OR' with channels 10 and 11.
- Aux 10 is a virtual output; it is not connected to an external output, just changes state in the logic. I have it set to turn the fan on and off, through the OR with Aux 6, based on coolant temps (off at 85C, on at 90C).
- Aux 11 is a virtual output. I have it set to turn the fan on and off, though the OR with Aux 6, based on boost (off at 150 kPa, on at 160 kPa).

Now, there are two ways to fix it. Easy, and a little harder.
- Easy: Change the set points on Aux 11 to a very high boost level that you never intend to reach, like 300 kPa and 310 kPa.
- A little harder: Get rid of the OR in Aux 6, and replace it with the exact same settings on Aux 10. Get rid of the settings on Aux 10 and Aux 11 by setting them to 'none'.' That is what I would do personally since it is cleaner.
- Setting Aux 11 to 'none' might work too, not sure.

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 07-30-2009 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 07-30-2009, 02:38 PM   #80
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I don't see how, you are a champion for following that garbled mess. I should never write in the morning.

I gave it another go. Hopefully that makes a tiny bit more sense.

I kind of like the idea of the fans coming on anytime boost comes in. Especially at a track day, try to maximize what radiator and fans you have. Did this help you out Tex?

Last edited by TravisR; 07-31-2009 at 09:48 AM.
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