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Old 07-30-2009, 05:27 PM   #81
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LOL yeah it is a hard thing to describe in a concise manner. I did like the map floating in space analogy. But, if I had to boil it down to one sentence... The correction factors need to be enabled while tuning the fuel map since they are (if set up properly) offsetting the changes in air density and what-nots that impact the mixture.

Hard to say how much the fan on in boost helped as I did not do a direct log-to-log comparison IIRC. I could try to go back through my logs but I am not sure which ones are which at this point (before and after). But, hey, it is worth a shot, and easy to try thanks to the adaptronic. If one is having trouble with heat soaking, and the IC is in front of the radiator, then why not give it a try?
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Old 07-31-2009, 08:37 AM   #82
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Ok, more idle tuning problems:

I read all the info you guys posted on here about idle tuning as well as the manual, and I STILL can't get it to effectively and REPEATEDLY idle right. I start the car, let it idle til it is in its usual water temp range (105-108*) and get the afr to be in the 14's. It idles great. I drive it around, and sometimes it idles great and sometimes it bounces. I have copied Tedsmx5 "corrections" section and it still does that, I have copied ZX-tex "corrections" and it still does that.
It is TOTALLY random too. I'd be driving it for a while and when I let off and let it idle its fine. Then it starts bouncing around. I have tweaked with the afr map so many times I dont even know what else to do.

SO

Travis, can you post your map that you have on your car? I need to figure out WTF I'm doing wrong or am missing in my map. The car simply behaves differently and idles like **** whenever it feels like it. First its fine, then idle jumps around like crazy and stalls sometimes, then it will idle great again. WITHOUT CHANGING A SINGLE THING! I'm guessing as temps change it is not set up properly to accommodate. AFR's spike between rich and lean when it bounces around, and no matter what I do to the idle cell AND ALL THE SURROUNDING CELLS it still bounces and jumps between rich and lean.

Please tell me what I'm doing wrong. My map is posted and I am completely stumped.
Other than the idle, the car is getting better and better the more I tweak with it so that's a good thing.

HALP MAI IDLE PLEEEZ


PS: post #77 was pretty damn confusing
Can you guys please dumb your posts down so us non-engineer folk can understand? LOL you guys are like machines/geniuses, and I'm just a kid trying to keep up



**edit: OOH, just found the thread with y8s and prospero's maps. Lots of trims completely different. I'll be trying those settings in the morning)

Last edited by 18psi; 07-31-2009 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:32 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Here you go. Now the second fan will kick on at the same temperature and map reading as the first fan, plus it will kick on if the A/C is activated.
The "latest2" file has the ignition control set to Rapid Learning. Should this be set to Closed Loop?
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:52 AM   #84
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The rapid learning will cause your idle to be rough. Its a side effect of it always messing with the timing.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:53 AM   #85
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Firstly, TravisR is right about the air temp, your AFR will vary 1% for every 3deg C change in air temp. But older carburetted cars don’t have air temp correction and they still run ok (that’s my argument ) and the e420c will adjust your AFR +or-8% using the O2 sensor, so it’s mostly covered. The older e420b had the MAT trim set in firmware, no adjustment.
My point is when your trying to do a basic idle set up you don’t want any trim changing the AFR on you including changes in MAT.
Make the MAT that you had when you tuned your idle, the zero for you MAT trim, every ones happy.
Now to 18psi’s idle, does the idle for the AC and elec. load work?
Have you set up the “Base Idle (coolant temp)” and minium value in the “Overall control”?
If so go to the Idle page the “Closed loop idle control”
Extra elec load rpm: 150. Low batt (RPM): 0.
Control band rpm: 200. A/C (RPM): 150.
Neutral time out: 1000. Calmdown effort: 0.
Recovery RPM 1 & 2 Extra effort to 0.
Set the Target Idle Speed (coolant temp) to your chosen value.
NOTE YOUR PID setting may well be different to mine in the end, but close.
Don’t rush this part and keep an eye on the engine temp.
Slowly increase the Proportional gain up, waiting 5 seconds for it to stabilize, keep increasing until the engine starts to surge/hunt
up and down (you will see the idle value go up & down in the live gauges window).
Now adjust the Differential gain up slowly to (waiting 5 seconds after each adjustment) for the idle to stabilize (stop surging).
Try the idle under different loads AC on Light on etc. and tweak the PID
for best idle (it may start to surge with the lights on).
Then when all is good add 1 to the Integral gain this is for long time stability.
It’s good practice doing the idle, gets you familiar with the WARI program and maps, early days thou, you will readjust your idle later.
When you have 0,0,0 in the PID windows the idle control is in open loop adjusted by the Base Idle Value (coolant temp) plus the Extra effort boxes.
Closed loop learning next time.
Ted
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Old 07-31-2009, 11:18 AM   #86
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POSSIBLY SUCCESS

Ok guys, first and foremost I want to say: the "latest2" file is COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE! DO NOT USE IT (if anyone ever reads this later).

Secondly, I just came back from a 30 minute drive and the car is running PERFECT. How? You guys are absolutely right: my stupid *** had the ignition on rapid learn. Also, I mimicked y8's settings for "corrections" and "idle" and BOY WHAT A DIFFERENCE. From then I started dialing in the idle as you guys have suggested, and VOILA, the idle is consistently stable, does not bounce around any more, the car does not stall, and feels SOOO much better to drive its unbelievable. I set the ignition on "closed loop" for now and concentrated on the fueling. Auto tuned a good bit of the lower rpm/load cells, and the car is an absolute joy to drive compared to how it was before. It still needs work but hey, I'm a VERY happy man so far

Travis I'll have a decent 460cc 91oct map to contribute to your map thread in a few days here

Anywho, thanx for being patient with me guys



One minor concern: while my idle is stable and afr's are not jumping around wildly anymore, after I let the car idle for a while they still jump around. Anywhere between mid 13's to high 14's. Usually not that bad though. RPM stays steady so its definitely a minor issue. Could this be a bad injector or seal? Or does my idle tuning still need a bit more work?

Anywho, I drove it this morning and it was pretty chilly and car felt GREAT. I'll drive it again when its close to 100* outside and report back. Hopefully she runs just as good
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Old 08-01-2009, 08:15 PM   #87
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Drove it around and tuned a few more cells last night. I still haven't driven it in 100+ degree weather since it got a little cooler around here lately, but the car drives excellent. Every once in a blue moon right after I start it the rpm would jump up to like 3-4k rpm but after 3 seconds or so they would settle back down. Otherwise its behaving good and I am very happy
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:33 PM   #88
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Thats weird on the idle jump. What does your extra effort after cranking look like?
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Old 08-02-2009, 11:51 PM   #89
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short post crank 20
duration 1250
long post crank 30
duration 25000


Too much?
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Old 08-03-2009, 12:11 AM   #90
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nope looks ok. remember it also works in conjunction with your CLT enrichment.
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:56 AM   #91
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My injectors on cranking shoot about as much fuel at idle as they do at 100KPA.

I never attached my map. Here it is!
Attached Files
File Type: zip Travistunedmap.zip (1.9 KB, 47 views)
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Old 08-03-2009, 07:58 AM   #92
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Sweet
More maps for me to look at as I'm tuning mine.
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:32 PM   #93
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OK, ONE MORE ISSUE:


The car is idling decently and drives pretty good still BUT:

At idle my afr's are ALL OVER THE PLACE. It will hold a steady idle and doesnt jump around anymore, so that's good, but when its idling, no matter if its cold or hot, my afr's are anywhere between low 13's and 14.7. Like its CONSTANTLY changing. Every second, its like 14.7, 13.5, 13.9, 13.0, 14.2, JUST ALL OVER THE PLACE and will not sit at a set afr for more than 1 second. Adjusting the idle and the surrounding cells raises the AREA that the afr's jump around in, but does nothing to keep them steady, or at least CLOSE to each other.

WHAT COULD BE CAUSING THIS?
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Old 08-05-2009, 11:05 PM   #94
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I think the problem jsut maybe the noise you get through the sensor at idle. Its pretty unlikely your actually burning a spread of 1.7AFR on a single pulsewidth unless you've got a clogged injector. Your header (turbo or not) is still sucking air in in the exhaust, and pulses are going everywhere. I'd say if you average all those numbers thats probably the true AFR in the chamber.
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Old 08-06-2009, 01:09 AM   #95
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FWIW, mine always does it, too but there is a slight (50 RPM) RPM change going on as well.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:46 AM   #96
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RPM is steady (finally), thank God for that. If that is normal I won't worry about it. My injectors were cleaned/tested by deatchwerks right before they went in so Im pretty sure they're fine. Thanx for clearing that up.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:07 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
OK, ONE MORE ISSUE:


The car is idling decently and drives pretty good still BUT:

At idle my afr's are ALL OVER THE PLACE. It will hold a steady idle and doesnt jump around anymore, so that's good, but when its idling, no matter if its cold or hot, my afr's are anywhere between low 13's and 14.7. Like its CONSTANTLY changing. Every second, its like 14.7, 13.5, 13.9, 13.0, 14.2, JUST ALL OVER THE PLACE and will not sit at a set afr for more than 1 second. Adjusting the idle and the surrounding cells raises the AREA that the afr's jump around in, but does nothing to keep them steady, or at least CLOSE to each other.

WHAT COULD BE CAUSING THIS?
Mine jumps the same at idle. Could be standing wave in the exhaust at idle.
Ted
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