Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes. - Page 174 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 08-17-2012, 02:43 PM   #3461
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Updates.

Put fuel system back together. AN fittings are a pain in the *** to tighten properly. Too much and you fucky upy the threads. Too little and leak.

Replaced a meth line that had a pinhole leak that bukakke'd Soviet. Snapped a nozzle in the process (the Aquamist nozzles are dinky as fucky) but it's ok because I have a pile of them.

Found the exhaust leak. The vband flange at the turbine was misaligned. Was surprisingly unsooty for the sound of the leak though.

Started car up. Set FPR to 60psi with no vac, 50psi or so with vac source. BTW I idle at about 1200RPM because it keeps me from stalling as much with the twin ceramic clutch.

Was ready for a test drive, but first checked the vband flange. Strangely, still heard exhaust leak.

saw a strand of header wrap flapping around.. stuck hand behind manifold and found... THE OTHER EXHAUST LEAK. I have had many an exhaust leak in my time and this one is a big 'un. Gonna have to be fixeded before redyno...

Note that I do not blame ARTech in any way. My turbo weighs exactly 50lbs. QSV weighs about 4lb, intake 3lbs, downpipe about 15lbs or so, plus exhaust is attached too. That is A LOT of weight. Plus, as you read above, high boost means high retard. That means A LOT of combustion is taking place in the manifold, turbine, and downpipe. Which means a lot of stress on the metal. Note that this is mild sched 40 biggie wall thickness.

Anyways, another day another problem.

Last edited by Faeflora; 08-17-2012 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:49 PM   #3462
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High retard indeed
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:49 PM   #3463
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Thats odd, witht eh vac source hooked up and the car idling it should have dropped to like 40ish. You dont idle at 10 pounds of boost do you?
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Old 08-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #3464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Thats odd, witht eh vac source hooked up and the car idling it should have dropped to like 40ish. You dont idle at 10 pounds of boost do you?
Had it backwards, fixed post. ha ha.
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:12 PM   #3465
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Why 60psi and not 45 like everyone else.

Is there any reasoning behind you running 60psi???
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Old 08-17-2012, 04:59 PM   #3466
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How are your fuel pumps wired? Do you have a beefy enough power supply to them? As the graph shows above, the current draw really jumps over 100psi (~7.5bar). At ~115psi those pumps are drawing approximately 16 amps each.

If lowering your base fuel pressure doesn't work I'd consider checking the power delivery to your pumps. Maybe even try to measure it during a dyno run and make sure you get a constant 12v to both pumps.

Just a thought...

Last edited by Efini~FC3S; 08-17-2012 at 04:59 PM. Reason: where was that "t"?
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:01 PM   #3467
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For those questioning higher than stock fuel pressure:

ID1000's actually LIKE higher than normal fuel pressure. In fact, it helps with atomization and "cleaner" more efficient burn. So 70-90 isn't bad at all.

And iirc NB's run 60psi stock vs 45 for NA's. Don't quote me on that tho
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:09 PM   #3468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
For those questioning higher than stock fuel pressure:

ID1000's actually LIKE higher than normal fuel pressure. In fact, it helps with atomization and "cleaner" more efficient burn. So 70-90 isn't bad at all.

And iirc NB's run 60psi stock vs 45 for NA's. Don't quote me on that tho
I run 60psi at idle and the fpr goes to 70 with 460s @ 10psi in the miata, and I am at a half-bandaid w/ wideband and overboost protection. and I get 13.6 full boost and 12.5 idle ( a wee rich, i need a MS again)

fuel pressure is more for spray imo, because flow is rated at the injector
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:17 PM   #3469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pen2_the_penguin View Post
I run 60psi at idle and the fpr goes to 70 with 460s @ 10psi in the miata, and I am at a half-bandaid w/ wideband and overboost protection. and I get 13.6 full boost and 12.5 idle ( a wee rich, i need a MS again)

fuel pressure is more for spray imo, because flow is rated at the injector
A wee lean and a wee rich and a WHOLE LOT OF FAIL

You of all people have been here long enough to know how terrible band aids are. C'mon now
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Old 08-17-2012, 05:17 PM   #3470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pen2_the_penguin View Post
I run 60psi at idle and the fpr goes to 70 with 460s @ 10psi in the miata, and I am at a half-bandaid w/ wideband and overboost protection. and I get 13.6 full boost and 12.5 idle ( a wee rich, i need a MS again)

fuel pressure is more for spray imo, because flow is rated at the injector
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:16 PM   #3471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
For those questioning higher than stock fuel pressure:

ID1000's actually LIKE higher than normal fuel pressure. In fact, it helps with atomization and "cleaner" more efficient burn. So 70-90 isn't bad at all.

And iirc NB's run 60psi stock vs 45 for NA's. Don't quote me on that tho
Good to know. Haven't used the ID's yet. They are going in my race car though. Good thing I have an A1000 fuel pump!
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:31 PM   #3472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
A wee lean and a wee rich and a WHOLE LOT OF FAIL

You of all people have been here long enough to know how terrible band aids are. C'mon now
I KNOWZ!


but its not borked, also dont quote me on the 13.6, I need to verify if thats really what its at. My wideband hasnt been reset in a while.

Not my thread to jack, but I am getting MS again hopefully (like mention in Ramble thread)
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:44 PM   #3473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S View Post
How are your fuel pumps wired? Do you have a beefy enough power supply to them? As the graph shows above, the current draw really jumps over 100psi (~7.5bar). At ~115psi those pumps are drawing approximately 16 amps each.

If lowering your base fuel pressure doesn't work I'd consider checking the power delivery to your pumps. Maybe even try to measure it during a dyno run and make sure you get a constant 12v to both pumps.

Just a thought...
getting 14.4 volts to them would be even better. I havent heard about it on these cars but on a lot of other cars they're do a rewire of the pump so it pulls power with some big, like 14ga wire straight from the alternator or main fuse box to the pump relay and then to the pump. I did notice that our stock wiring is only some little 18ga when I had to cut the melted bits out of my harness for the fp relay.
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Old 08-17-2012, 06:58 PM   #3474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pen2_the_penguin View Post
I run 60psi at idle and the fpr goes to 70 with 460s @ 10psi in the miata, and I am at a half-bandaid w/ wideband and overboost protection. and I get 13.6 full boost and 12.5 idle ( a wee rich, i need a MS again)

fuel pressure is more for spray imo, because flow is rated at the injector
Hyper?

13.6 afr in full boost?

Flow is rated at the injector AT certain psi.. commonly ~40psi.

You better believe that the same injector will flow A LOT more at say 60 or 80psi.

Take a water bottle with the button cap. Open it up and hold it to yoru face. Squeeze it a bit... Then squeeze it as hard as you can. That's what pressure does.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:00 PM   #3475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
getting 14.4 volts to them would be even better. I havent heard about it on these cars but on a lot of other cars they're do a rewire of the pump so it pulls power with some big, like 14ga wire straight from the alternator or main fuse box to the pump relay and then to the pump. I did notice that our stock wiring is only some little 18ga when I had to cut the melted bits out of my harness for the fp relay.
Nigs i run like 12gauge wire straight from the battery via a relay.

Btw my aystem voltage off the NA alternator is like 13-13.5v
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:16 PM   #3476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Hyper?

13.6 afr in full boost?

Flow is rated at the injector AT certain psi.. commonly ~40psi.

You better believe that the same injector will flow A LOT more at say 60 or 80psi.

Take a water bottle with the button cap. Open it up and hold it to yoru face. Squeeze it a bit... Then squeeze it as hard as you can. That's what pressure does.
then my numbers must be wrong somewhere, and im being an idiot. I havent driven it since I got back from georgia, so now when I get home I must clear my name. Because now that I think for a bit, it sounds pretty bad.

As for injectors, pressure only flows to a certain point, then it gets restricted quite a bit.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #3477
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Correct, pressure only flows to a certain point however that point is quite high. You're right though it does taper off eventually.

For our applications we will see a good gain... injector flowing 600ccs at 40psi flowing 850 or so at 80psi.
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Old 08-17-2012, 07:35 PM   #3478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Correct, pressure only flows to a certain point however that point is quite high. You're right though it does taper off eventually.

For our applications we will see a good gain... injector flowing 600ccs at 40psi flowing 850 or so at 80psi.
But remember thats only differential pressure so 80psi of fuel pressure at 20 psi of boost is only 60 psi differential pressure, so they will flow the same as if the fuel pressure was 60 psi and the manifold was at atmosphere.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:30 PM   #3479
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
But remember thats only differential pressure so 80psi of fuel pressure at 20 psi of boost is only 60 psi differential pressure, so they will flow the same as if the fuel pressure was 60 psi and the manifold was at atmosphere.
Well that's talking extra now but without that extra bump in fuel pressure it would be flowing even less since now since that 40 psi standard fuel pressure will be only 20psi over the manifold pressure.
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:58 AM   #3480
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I was very industrious today.

Among other things, I pulled the manifold off the car and unbolted everything. It took about two hours and I wasn't working slowly. Just a lot of awkward nuts and bolts.

I was very sad to take it off, but oh well. I found the crack and it really is quite a big one. It goes 3/4 away around the collector flange.

My build thread is infamous for its lack of pictures so let me try to make up for it. Here are pics of my hotside in all of its glory. I am being serious, it really is quite glorious. It just needs to prove itself. While all the parts were off, I inspected them. Turbo is, of course, totally fine and happy. This Turbo is the honey badger of my build. Quick Spool Valve is fine and dandy too. Good job Sound Performance. Tial WG is just fine too.

Yes, the assembly is as a whole, very very heavy. I am not sure what ARTech will do. I think it definitely may need some major major gussetting? I am not convinced about the efficacy of a crane. Maybe the whole thing should be dipped in cast iron?

Anyways, pics. I know you guys love pics for failure analysis and so do I. This failure root cause it pretty obvious.



































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Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-3wozw.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-b00li.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-nzym3.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-mtief.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-inpj3.jpg  

Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-mczqb.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-vsakx.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-8lexr.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-kxpnb.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-arb7o.jpg  

Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-pm41n.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-fg7zj.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-9waat.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-mwl5m.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-f6q1w.jpg  

Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-pwkk7.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-bfyyw.jpg   Faelflora breaks his promise to break no more parts. He breaks eddy brakes.-na9xi.jpg  
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