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I happen to live right down the road from William at TDR so I'm hoping to bum a ride off of him when he finally boosts his car. My only boosted Miata experience has been an MSM and a ghetto-rigged 99 FM kit that would cut fuel above 1/2 throttle. Still was wicked fast. Love the TDR guys but I don't know if I'd go down Rotrex lane.
I really need to go out on track again. It's been far too long. Hoping to get a few maintenance items done in time for an Apex Driving event in June.
The actual quote is on my desk at work, so I don't have the exact information in front of me. It was a comprehensive parts-only quote. It included the Rotrex kit ($4900), minus the fuel and timing cards, plus a Racing Beat header with wideband bung installation, the wideband itself, a high flow catted 2.5" midpipe, the oil cooler and brackets (I already have the Mocal sandwich plate, fittings, and hoses), a MS PNP, and some other stuff I asked about. I was exploring the Rotrex idea, since it seems like it could be the perfect, reliable on-track solution. The total cost was high enough, that virtually any turbo setup is in the cards. And, the sales tax mistake (my fault for not verifying) really caused my eyes to bug out.
Don't get me wrong here. Gary is a great guy, and by all verified accounts, he makes and sells solid products. I kind of want to assume the Rotrex Miata I went up against last weekend had something going on with it. OTOH, we do say that performance driving is 80% skill, 15% grip, and 5% power. He may have had the power (above 4K RPM!), but I had the grip and maybe a sliver more skill? It's possible.
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You seem to be coming to conclusions based on basically no solid information about that other guy. Just because he had more power means basically nothing. My first track day I passed a 996 GT3 and he couldn't keep up. I am not special and I had very little track experience, so who knows what that guys issue was. Just build what you want to build and stop worrying about what that guy did.
I happen to live right down the road from William at TDR so I'm hoping to bum a ride off of him when he finally boosts his car. My only boosted Miata experience has been an MSM and a ghetto-rigged 99 FM kit that would cut fuel above 1/2 throttle. Still was wicked fast. Love the TDR guys but I don't know if I'd go down Rotrex lane.
I really need to go out on track again. It's been far too long. Hoping to get a few maintenance items done in time for an Apex Driving event in June.
The Rotrex experience looks just like the dyno. The car behaves as stock down low, which is to say, it is anemic. Once you reach around 4K on the tach, ~150 ft-lbs of torque makes it feel alive, and it just gets better from there, in very linear fashion. It is kind of like driving a reliable rotary. If you can keep the revs up, it is a lot of fun, but don't expect to beat the average Camry off the line. A Rotrex could make for a potent track weapon, since revs are kept high anyway. There are a lot of advantages, but I'm still probably going with a turbo.
Definitely come on out in June! Events fill up almost immediately now, so you need to be sitting in front of your computer with the registration page open at 7:55 AM the morning registration opens. I hope to see you out there!
Originally Posted by Chilicharger665
You seem to be coming to conclusions based on basically no solid information about that other guy. Just because he had more power means basically nothing. My first track day I passed a 996 GT3 and he couldn't keep up. I am not special and I had very little track experience, so who knows what that guys issue was. Just build what you want to build and stop worrying about what that guy did.
Have you been in a ride along in and/or driven a trrruuubooooo setup yet?
I've read good things about rotrex setups from emilio and savington. They both still seem to prefer turbo setups but have described rotrex setups as deceptively fast.
Indeed. You mentioned you "Out drove one of his cars" but really you out-drove the other driver. I passed a Viper in my stock S2000, and I outran a BMW M4 and a Ferrari 458 (separate track days) in my 230whp Miata. Both cars should have left me for dead, but the drivers were being more conservative than I was.
The Rotrex is a really fun setup. As long as you're OK to spend the same amount of money as a TSE kit while going slower in order to have the perfectly linear, instantly responsive Rotrex, you'll be happy with it.
I think the rotrex is also much nicer to the stock motor right? Tends to produce power higher in the rev range and keeps the torque lower. You could have a pretty solid track setup while still keeping the rods happy with sub-200 rwtq.
I think the rotrex is also much nicer to the stock motor right? Tends to produce power higher in the rev range and keeps the torque lower. You could have a pretty solid track setup while still keeping the rods happy with sub-200 rwtq.
I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor. Andrew has shown that stock motors can live with his kit. Definitely have to limit boost at lower RPMs though.
I happen to live right down the road from William at TDR so I'm hoping to bum a ride off of him when he finally boosts his car. My only boosted Miata experience has been an MSM and a ghetto-rigged 99 FM kit that would cut fuel above 1/2 throttle. Still was wicked fast. Love the TDR guys but I don't know if I'd go down Rotrex lane.
I really need to go out on track again. It's been far too long. Hoping to get a few maintenance items done in time for an Apex Driving event in June.
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
I too believe in unicorns!
Have you been in a ride along in and/or driven a trrruuubooooo setup yet?
I've read good things about rotrex setups from emilio and savington. They both still seem to prefer turbo setups but have described rotrex setups as deceptively fast.
The only turbo Miatas I have driven on the track have been MSMs. One was stock, and the other had FM's Little Enchilada kit. The FM modified one was MUCH better. That car is partly what led me down the path of retiring my RX-8 for a turbocharged Miata.
Yeah. I've read all the Rotrex threads. The Rotrex option has been described as the Easy Button of track performance. Easy on the engine, easy to manage cooling, easy to drive, easy to maintain, easy to pass emissions, easy to remove the belt if something goes wrong and still drive it home. There is a lot to like. But the area under the curve is sad to look at. :(
Originally Posted by turbofan
Indeed. You mentioned you "Out drove one of his cars" but really you out-drove the other driver. I passed a Viper in my stock S2000, and I outran a BMW M4 and a Ferrari 458 (separate track days) in my 230whp Miata. Both cars should have left me for dead, but the drivers were being more conservative than I was.
The Rotrex is a really fun setup. As long as you're OK to spend the same amount of money as a TSE kit while going slower in order to have the perfectly linear, instantly responsive Rotrex, you'll be happy with it.
If you MUST be HPDE champion, get the turbo.
Not sure if your comment was directed at me. This particular car was interesting to me, because I know the driver, the cars are both NB2s, they are about the same weight, and we acquired them around the same time. We are both instructors at the same school, and our driving skills are fairly equal, or so we think. I know I was destroying him in the corners, and as long as he didn't kill my momentum, he couldn't pull on me on the straights in a meaningful way. What surprised both of us, is how quickly and easily I was able to chase him down and dispense with him. How the 80/15/5 rule applies here is the question.
Any of us that have any experience with this know the equation, and its inputs and outputs. I "beat" much faster cars all the time, and so do many other drivers of all skill levels. Many drivers of fast cars either don't want to drive hard, don't know how to drive well, or are too scared to try. But, for every one of those, there is at least one who destroys me in my slow cars. Still, it's fun to listen to a guy talk up his Z06, talk down my RX-8, then quietly force him to give it up after driving up his tailpipe for five laps, because numbers on paper don't necessarily translate to the real world. Watching those guys go through the five stages of grief, once they realize slow car fast > fast car slow, never gets old. Anyway, I beat up on a new GT-3R yesterday, but I'm not talking about it in this thread, because there can be only one reason why: he wasn't driving it anywhere near its potential. It isn't interesting; I've seen it a hundred times before.
Before we go much farther with the Brotrex vs. Trubo discussion...
I had half a track day yesterday, and I had the pleasure of meeting Hornetball and being utterly destroyed by him and his Honey Badger Miata. Rick is a heck of a nice guy, and was more than happy to share car info and driving tips. The Honey Badger is a great little track car, but Rick is in an entirely different league as a driver. Good stuff.
Of course. And, that is definitely the plan. My car just needs a little help to make it to the next level, so I plan on a fast spooling, low boost build. Add some mechanical empathy to my driving style, and such a build should be as reliable as a Rotrex, assuming I do what needs to be done toward that end in the build.
Originally Posted by turbofan
^what Aidan said.
I wouldn't let that be the deciding factor. Andrew has shown that stock motors can live with his kit. Definitely have to limit boost at lower RPMs though.
Just exploring all the options. Still most likely going turbo.
Honestly, all I want is for the Miata to be +1 over the RX-8. Any faster than that, and things get too expensive for track driving to be fun.
The RX-8's power to weight ratio is 15 lbs/hp. Currently, the Miata's is 23 (or 21, if we use ridethecliche's numbers). I need about 160 WHP to make the Miata match the 8. Just 200 WHP yields a P/W of 12. That looks like a solid goal that checks all the boxes for me. Of course, we all know boost is addictive, so...
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 04-24-2017 at 07:39 PM.
Not sure if your comment was directed at me. This particular car was interesting to me, because I know the driver, the cars are both NB2s, they are about the same weight, and we acquired them around the same time. We are both instructors at the same school, and our driving skills are fairly equal, or so we think. I know I was destroying him in the corners, and as long as he didn't kill my momentum, he couldn't pull on me on the straights in a meaningful way. What surprised both of us, is how quickly and easily I was able to chase him down and dispense with him. How the 80/15/5 rule applies here is the question.
It was directed to you, so thanks for the clarification -- pardon me if you clarified before and I just missed it. I didn't realize they were all instructors in the group you were running, so theoretically the guy shouldn't have been a noob. Sounds like perhaps your car is quite strong for a nearly stock one, and perhaps his is a bit weak for a supercharged one.
What units is your power/weight done in? At 115 hp and 2400 lbs I'm coming up with 20 lbs/hp.
It was directed to you, so thanks for the clarification -- pardon me if you clarified before and I just missed it. I didn't realize they were all instructors in the group you were running, so theoretically the guy shouldn't have been a noob. Sounds like perhaps your car is quite strong for a nearly stock one, and perhaps his is a bit weak for a supercharged one.
What units is your power/weight done in? At 115 hp and 2400 lbs I'm coming up with 20 lbs/hp.
Could be. Or perhaps, in the 80/15/5 paradigm, 15 > 5, and that's all there is to it. Probably overthinking it.
I'm calculating it the simplest way possible, wherein bigger numbers are gooder: 105 / 2443 * 100 = 4.3. No units. My brilliance cannot be constrained by your arbitrary and oppressive standards! Wait. I'm not a millennial. Your way is better. I'll edit the above.
Just exploring all the options. Still most likely going turbo.
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The RX-8's power to weight ratio is 15 lbs/hp. Currently, the Miata's is 23 (or 21, if we use ridethecliche's numbers). I need about 160 WHP to make the Miata match the 8. Just 200 WHP yields a P/W of 12. That looks like a solid goal that checks all the boxes for me. Of course, we all know boost is addictive, so...
Could be. Or perhaps, in the 80/15/5 paradigm, 15 > 5, and that's all there is to it. Probably overthinking it.
I'm calculating it the simplest way possible, wherein bigger numbers are gooder: 105 / 2443 * 100 = 4.3. No units. My brilliance cannot be constrained by your arbitrary and oppressive standards! Wait. I'm not a millennial. Your way is better. I'll edit the above.
Alrighty. I think I have done my newb searching, and I think I want to build a MS instead of buying a PNP. I'm quite handy with schematics and soldering irons, so it shouldn't be much of a challenge. I *THINK* this is all the right stuff from DIYAutoTune for a 2003. Am I missing anything (other than the connector I need to source from Mouser)?
Are there any other sources I should be considering? Brain? The Rev? Other? As you may have noticed, I'm not above being a credit card mechanic and just bolting on a PNP solution...
04-24-2017, 12:53 AM
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