5cm spacer? Christ your car is going to have a high looking ride height!

It'll still be lower than standard. Should look similar to how it looked originally (see first page of this thread). The 50mm spacers are simply so I can run a relatively standard ride height without adding loads of preload to the Xidas and consequently losing the function of the helper springs. It's going to require a lot of testing and adjusting. The ride height will be fixed at a point that allows the front subframe to be 100mm clear of the road, and the damper preload and spacer height will be adjusted until the helper springs are working optimally.

Going over to check on progress tomorrow. The car has now been sitting in this shop for over a year.

Well, it's still far from running.
I didn't speak to Quent (shop owner), but I did have a good look around the car as usual.


Things that have been done include:

Some of the hose routing;
Fitting the intake manifold;
Fitting the plugs and plug cover;
Fitting 50mm spacers (actually 2x25mm on each corner, as it was much cheaper than 1x50mm and gives me the option of easily dropping down to a single 25mm if the correct functioning of the Xida's helper springs require it);
Completing the exhaust;
Some more ECU wiring.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

This is what 50mm of spacing looks like. Not exactly pretty, but I think the benefit will be worth the 2kg/4.5lb total weight penalty.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

Ew. Note that the dampers are still wound all the way up, so once again, this is not a final, tractor-spec ride height.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

Interior out, again. The ECU and Dastek Unichip are located in the passenger footwell.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

The wiper mechanism clears this cut out by a few millimetres. A common packaging theme in this car seems to be one of having loads of space in the engine bay, yet an incredible lack of space between everything around the area that's been cut and shut. It works, but my God it's tight.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

Not something you see every day in Miata-world:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

Pedals extended 3". I can't remember why these weren't extended 4" in line with the gearstick and steering wheel position, but it must just have been due to where the new seat puts my feet. I think it's reasonably likely that these come out and get extended a bit more.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

Not much clearance between the steering column and the rollcage brace bar. If I ever want to move the steering wheel down a bit I'll be stuck.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342885491

wow the only thing i can see missing is a seat. you'll be driving it this month :naughty:

order yourself a gopro or equiv so we can see video of first drive. one small suggestion: take care when positioning the seat so that you have plenty of room to operate the shifter. try all the positions. i had a problem where my arm would hit the seat in certain gears and i managed to misshift one time as a result.

…funny. Bitch :P

I actually asked Quent to stop quoting me a completion date last week. So you won't be hearing any more "O mi gawd it's gonna be done in 37 minutes time!!1!". This project has gone from 6 weeks to nearly 60.


And the seat to gearstick positioning is tight, but fine. The gearstick sits up higher than the original Mazda unit, which helps a tad. But yes, it's certainly something I'll keep an eye on. Modifying the top of the gearstick itself to position the knob higher and closer to the wheel might be an option if it becomes an issue.

wot? i'm serious. i drove my car for a year with dangly wires like that - just zip tie them. thats 60 seconds tops. your hood has quite good venting as-is - leave that alone. stick a cone filter and MAF on that TB. fan? - your in uk lol just drive fast. radiator hoses and fluids - thats couple of hours.

you'll want a seat i think though.

i was wondering about what you are doing for speedo. i think tach, oil, and water temps are pretty easy to adapt using stock honda sensors.

I just don't want to assume it's nearly done, because I've been doing that for a year now! I am so freaking desperate to get this car on the road you would not believe.

Not sure exactly what the shop are doing regarding adapting the loom for the tach and speedo etc. I'll have to remember to ask next time I'm there :)

There's still plenty to do, but none of what's remaining should take very long. Again though, I just daren't start thinking it's almost done, because the shop seem to take quite a long time to do things. However, if I was paying them their usual rate, instead of a mates-rate discounted rate that they don't make any money from whatsoever, I think this build would have been complete a long time ago. Basically though, this is the reason I've tried not to make a big deal about a quoted 6 week project turning into a 60 week project.

PS, no MAF - it uses a MAP sensor. It's the wee black block on top of the throttle body.

mine is a different beast obviously, but i can tell you that oil press and tach worked for me without any work at all. temp sensor should be a matter of some resisters to match miata to honda.

closest data I found for honda:
Honda-Tech - View Single Post - coolant temperature sensor question

in this thread discussing water temps joe lets the cat out of the bag that he knows temp circuits as well as the gas lamp girls:
https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...u-using-48204/

edit: you could try this: http://www.miataforumz.com/how-40/ho...emp-gauge-245/


i don't know about speedo. NA's use mechanical speedo which i assume gets converted to a voltage at some point in the cluster itself. i guess the approach depends on what the honda gearbox has. idk but your motor is characterful so i'm sure its no problem.

NA speed is 100% mechanical, no electrical conversion. The cable goes from box to cluster and directly drives the speedo.

NB Speedo is electronic, though the fitment gearbox end is identical.

Is this to compensate for the 2" subframe spacing and keep the shocks centered in their stroke?

Yes, although the similarity between the two dimensions is just coincidence. The 50mm spacing comes from looking at the recommended pinch weld ride height Emilio specified, and working out how much higher the car needed to be for this lowered subframe to clear the road by 100mm/4". Bit of a bodge, but I can't think of a better way to do it.

Quantas V-TAKS?

Absolutely not.

Quick update: I'm away for the next three weeks. If the shop haven't completed the car by the time I get back, it'll be put on a trailer and carted down to tdi-plc.com to finish the job. So, for better or worse, there'll be big news on this car in three weeks.

These automotive-project-builds need contracts with fabricator just like they do in construction. It keeps the business focused on the project and scheduling since they would otherwise be penalized financial for falling behind.

re: shock mount spacers- I know they don't load up like a macpherson (single arm) suspension where the shock is actually a control component, but I wonder what the loads are going to be like on those two bolts and the spacers. IF I were to do the job w/o any engineering analysis, I would likely either A) weld in an upside "cup" to the chassis with gussets so that the shock mount used shorter (normal) length bolts or B) fabricated up a new shock mount with a similar type "upside down cup" so that the bolts were again shorter and it mounted to the stock location. Think something opposite of the ISC upper perches/tops that increase shock travel.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that the lateral load on these components is minimal. If a bolt shears, I will be sure to let you know!
And totally agreed re. contracts. One job the company I work for is approaching the point where damages are incurred - £2500 per day for being late. I heard of a project they did years ago where they had to shut a london underground station in the middle of the night while they completed some work, and were penalised thousands of pounds per minute. Per freaking minute. So yeah, I really wish i'd had a contracted deadline with a proportional penalty, because it would have sped the process up hugely. Whether the shop would have taken the work on if such a contract had been suggested is a different matter!

Any updates?

The shop just need the doors from me so they can get it MOTd. Sounds like it's all up and running. I went over there today basically as soon as I got back from abroad, but unfortunately got there just too late - the shop was all locked up. Probably should have called ahead :noob:
I'm not sure how I'm going to see it this week. Tempted to take an accidentally-on-purpose long lunch break from work...

…..it's close enough to being done for me not to want to take it to another shop.


The one thing stopping it running at the moment related to the immobiliser. The immobiliser unit apparently has one wire that tells the ECU that the immobiliser is there. I'm not using the immobiliser. Therefore, problem. Without knowing the VIN of the original S2000, Honda do not want to touch it, let alone reprogram it. Currently, one of Quent's friends at Honda is sending the shop a reprogramming unit that gets around the lack of VIN, lack of bypassability, and all the other problems that I've forgotten about which make this wire such a little bitch.

Aside from that, I'm pretty happy with how it's worked out so far.
The clutch pedal felt very strange for the first part of it's travel, then suddenly felt normal after this point. After some chin scratching, this turned out to be caused by something easily fixable…
Quent examined everything clutch-related, and eventually, with me pushing the pedal and him watching the master cylinder, discovered that the weird-feeling initial travel was caused by the firewall flexing. As soon as the firewall had flexed to it's full extent, the pedal suddenly became normal. We're talking 40% of the pedal travel feeling strange as a result of this, so the flex is significant… but easily fixable. Phew.
Other niggles to sort? Well, the driver's seat still needs to go down a bit. Also, the interior obviously needs trimming and pretty-ing. And, the dampers need work. At minimal spring preload, the front helper springs work almost perfectly, but the front ride height needs dropping 20mm, so one of the 25mm spacers will be removed. The rear is a different story - the dampers are on the bump stops at static ride height. Hmmph. May be changing to a higher rate spring. Not sure yet.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
Wires will be tidied. Note that one of the cam cover breather hoses is yet to be plumbed in.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
Water in the intake? Possibly… hydrolock preachers on s2ki.com would hate this. Tempted to ask the shop to put an ali sheet directly in front of the filter.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
Panel bashing required to fit XL passenger seat.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
Driver's seat touches the door, just.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
A rather flexibly-mounted clutch master cylinder.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
Investigating the dampers. Something to keep the springs located will probably be made, as the rears try to fall inwards at the top when minimal preload is used.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
Should have got a better shot of the exhaust and PPF brace, the latter of which has been modified a bit.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1345479469
More damper investigation.

Quent called today. The car is running, driving, and MOT'd...


:D

Driving it later. Haahaaaaaaa :D

John Barker (Evo car mag road tester/Jaguar test driver) has been driving it and providing feedback to the shop about what to tweak over the weekend. Apparently there's a slight dead spot in the steering right on initial turn in which the shop are currently working on. And the speedo doesn't work. I'll 'snag' the car over the next week or so, hopefully with John's help if he's available, and start getting everything ironed out.

Does that mean you're getting a feature in EVO?

(EVO subscriber signing in).

I drove it yesterday. I'm extremely happy. I can genuinely say that a year of fiscal and mental pain has been worth it.

There are tweaks that need to be made. The sump guard is currently 80mm from the road, and it's too low. The front end feels 'spongey' - slightly unreactive, heavy and heavily damped, which I hope can be sorted with geometry and damper adjustments as I do not want to use a thicker anti roll bar. I'm hitting the bump stops at the rear. And there are a couple of fault codes (one of them air pump related) that Quent had to keep erasing as I drove it in order for the engine to behave itself.
I'm pretty confident that all of this can be fixed. My only concern is that the Xidas 'might' not have enough travel for UK back roads. I'll see once it's all been tweaked.



Richy, I really hope so. However, I can't remember the last time they featured an individual's heavily modified project car.

With the ~50mm spacers you added, no. When installed as shipped with NB mounts, the tires will bottom against the chassis before the dampers run out of bump travel. No lack of droop or bump travel as designed.

Forgive me for not reading the entire thread but what is the reason for the huge spacers?

I drove it yesterday with no spacers at the front, and only 10mm spacing at the rear. The original idea of the spacers was to lift the car to a point where the lowered front subframe would clear speedbumps/road bumps, without winding the dampers higher than you've suggested previously when you've referred to max pinch weld ride heights suitable for these dampers.

For the record, the car's setup is not completed yet, so I'm reserving any definite damper judgement until that point. I have a feeling raising the car 20mm and gaining bump travel at the expense of droop travel might do the trick. That's what it feels like from the driver's seat, anyway.

Your spacers do the opposite in effect. Less bump travel, more droop travel. Same stroke, just more ground clearance.

I think what you meant to say is the Xidas allow the car to run so low that the engine can scrape with your particular engine hanging lower than a stock Miata engine. For that reason you have raised the whole car up to near OEM height and required spacers to do it.

I only chime in to clarify that the issues you are having are unique to your particular build and requirements, not a short coming of the Xidas. When installed in a Miata with a Miata engine, they're perfect ;)

You're right, yes. My car's an odd case - probably a heavier than standard rear end (substantial half cage, next to no weight saving measures rear of the seats) and a lighter than standard front. The car still undeniably bottoms out at the rear, with 10mm spacer and lower than standard (not sure of figures) ride height. I believe the shop are ditching the helper springs (so much for our determination to get them working perfectly!) and ordering longer springs. One way or another, it will be sorted.

The rear dampers have 103mm stroke. Plenty for a Miata. If you are bottoming too soon, you simply don't have enough spring preload and/or spring length. Simple.

It's alive!
Ugly foglight will be replaced by a rainlight mounted in the bumper.

Interior still needs trimming.

Weight distribution without driver:

Before: 52.5% front, with around 23kg/50lbs of fuel;

After: 51.4% front, with no fuel.


I've got the car back, now in prototype numero deux form, to put some miles on it.
First main issue is related to the suspension. Second main issue is that yes, the exhaust does clonk a bit every so often. Third semi-issue is that the 2nd gear synchro in the Honda 'box is possibly a bit ropey. Hmm. Aside from that it's all good. Just hope these problems can be sorted.

I'm still unconvinced that these dampers are the right ones for my needs. What I've realised I'm looking for are near-rally-spec dampers designed from the outset to run at standard ride height.
Roads are extremely bumpy around here, and when 'pressing on', the rear bottoms out (feels like hitting the bumpstops, not the tyre hitting the chassis) perhaps three or four times in a ten minute drive, when running slightly lower than standard ride height. With the same settings, the rear hops around under braking. Edit: this is with a 7" spring and 10mm top hat spacer.

I can't seem to make the problem go away by tweaking the damping. On smoother roads the secondary ride is fantastic, and I'm still convinced that these are probably the best track and anything-smoother-than-a-rally-stage road dampers available for these cars.

If they had a similar or longer stroke and body length as other dampers, I would concede that the travel problem I'm experiencing - if that's what it is - is inherent to the notoriously short-travel MX-5. However, the OEM Bilsteins, as skittish as they were, still somehow managed to keep the wheels on the ground much more of the time.* What adds to my theory is that the dampers I originally wanted for this car, that were developed on UK roads, featured a longer damper body and an extra 15mm stroke at the rear.

I'll keep trying to find a compromise, but I have a feeling I've just bought the wrong tool for the job.

*NB - If someone can find info on the '95 OEM Bilsteins that show they have a similar body length and stroke to Xidas please let me know, because that would tell me that I'm talking rubbish and should be trying harder to make the Xidas work.

How much bump and droop travel do you have at the rear at your ride height?
It still sounds like you have too little preload because you have lengthened the assembly with those custom spacers. We roll over 10" high race track kerbs at 100+mph and the Xida soaks it up. If you are bottoming at 60-80mph on smaller bumps, you need more preload and possibly higher spring rates.

We took the large spacers out, probably for good, last week. The comments I made above were using no spacing on the front, and 10mm spacing at the back. 9" springs on the front, 7" on the back, lots of preload. I will measure the bump and droop travel this weekend :)

\
7" springs with lots of preload should never bottom unless you jump it. I'm baffled as your experiences don't match anything we have encountered here yet.

Will await bump/droop numbers.

Uk roads= the suck :-(

By jove I think Quent's done it.


Quent wound both front and rear up 10mm, and backed off the adjuster three clicks, and suddenly, the car feels a lot better. It still takes off, and occasionally bottoms, but it's a controlled take off and bottom instead of a pant-meltingly terrifying take off and bottom.

So, I'm essentially still running out of travel, but it's controlled, so I'm happy.


The steering feels miles better too. Lighter with even more feel. John described it as 'more linear' when I was in the passenger seat. I didn't know what he meant until I drove it. I can now confidently describe the steering of this car, in tech-speek, as "rather bloody good". Only thing it lacks, to me, is a little positivity around centre, but I'm picking hairs. When I have a go in my friend's Mk1 Elise tomorrow I'm sure it will cast a harsh light on the steering of my car, but with no benchmark to compare it to, I love it. Apparently, Quent has added a little more toe in and reduced the negative camber of the front end. Contrary to what I'd have thought, this has done wonders for the steering.

John had two gripes with the car. The first was that the rear end is a little too planted. I drove it after John, and I actually quite like the way it is - it's not twitch-of-toe oversteer-adjustable mid corner unless you're over 7000rpm, but on the plus side, it's safe, and adjustable when you are determined for it to be adjustable. To clarify, the car still adjusts its attitude extremely well mid-corner depending on throttle and steering input, but it will not produce much oversteer on the exit of the corner unless you're really trying. Which is fine by me.

The second gripe he had is a little more subtle, to me - he felt the front end rose up a little too much between the braking and turn in phases of a corner, which unweighted it a fraction more than he'd like. He suggested adding more compression damping to the rear dampers, and a little more rebound damping to the fronts. Unfortunately, with single adjustable dampers, I'm unable to do this. Perhaps there's another way to achieve this effect.

The car is spectacularly un-slammed now, by the way. And yes, the front is a fair bit higher than the rear. It really works, though, which is considerably more important than any aesthetic considerations. Hella functional, yo.

Here's some pics of John and I.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1347656292

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1347655131

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1347655131




Finally, I thought the car felt a little under-powered on the drive home. Quent told me I'm probably just getting used to it, which I think is likely. I recorded a 60 to 100mph acceleration figure three times, and the average is about what I had predicted. On the same stretch of flat-looking road, I recorded 6.3 in one direction, and 6.8 in the other. The latter included accidentally brushing the rev limiter for a couple of blaps between third and fourth gear. The third time, on a different stretch of road, I got 6.53.
I checked the speedo calibration against the sat nav just to make sure it was about right. Quent calibrated it with marker posts, so it's probably more accurate than said 'nav. Also, all were conservatively timed - for example, I didn't hit 'stop' until I had definitely reached 100mph. All in all, the drivetrain has worked out exactly as predicted. Gearing is spot on too. Happy :D

Something i was wondering is, is the intake knocking against the pipe for the rad?

Moar figures:

Old engine: 27 miles per UK gallon
New engine: 30mpg.

Both figures were achieved after a mix of motorway miles, town stuff, and very-spirited-driving stuff.

Mr triple88a - the silver 90deg bend is screwed to the chassis. The intake apparatus (been a while since I've used that word!) can pivot around this point as the engine moves, helped by a little flex in the long silicone pipe. This fixing point doesn't allow it to move up or down, so it can't hit anything.

The old engine is still going strong and returning similar figures :)

Owen - great job man, congrats.
Haven't checked up on this thread in a few months, open it up and BAM this sucker is finished and you're enjoying it. Very good stuff :)

Great to hear about the old engine :)

The car's certainly not finished yet. It's going back to the shop in a couple of weeks for a planned final visit, after I've put some more miles on it. List of final tweaks include trimming the interior, heat shielding the trans tunnel, waterproofing everything, reducing the exhaust knocking noises as much as possible, fitting a decent foglight, replacing the windscreen, replacing a sidelight, possibly investigating the steering rack as there's an occassional single knock under hard load, as if something's slipping. Also, trying to get the Unichip to work so I can take it to be tuned.
And finally... Replacing the dampers.

The exhaust bung/silencer is fitted now, and it actually makes the car sound considerably better. Richer, with a better induction/exhaust noise balance.

I'll post another video tonight...

So after the back-and-forth you concluded that the xida's are just not going to work for you?

Yes. Remember the original dampers that I wanted for this car? That I gave up waiting for? I tried them back to back with the Xidas at the weekend. The Xidas kept the car better tied down over repeated rolling bumps (ie, the other dampers got a bit 'floaty', which is going to be fixed with a little more high-speed rebound damping) and the stiffer spring rates meant the car rolled less. So, the floatyness is being fixed, and the extra roll I don't mind at all. Over small, square edged bumps, the xidas were slightly harsher. Most importantly, and really the only reason I'm changing, is that these other dampers had noticably more travel.

After watching the track video of an F20 Miata, I really wanna drive this thing... It sounds awesome!!

The reverse rake you have is comical. Hard to imagine the car ever working to it's full potential set up like that. I wish I had know you were planning to run such an odd set up, I would not have recommended the Xida's. You're not running enough preload for the weight and the tall ride height in front is messing with the roll center and roll center axis. It will bottom, steer funny and bounce around up front no matter what band aids. The Xida's work great when used on a Miata with more of a standard track set up.

Bottom line, glad you found your other custom dampers are closer to ideal for your unique application and set up. Looks like fun!

Not entirely sure how the reverse rake or fractionally altered weight distribution would make much of a difference to the small bump performance or the total travel, which are the two things the others dampers have over the Xidas. The reverse rake situation is simply the best compromise we could find for the travel issues I had. Nothing to do with the lowered sump, or, believe it or not, our ability to set up a car.
The reason these short race dampers don't work for me is because I'm running a high ride height on extremely poor (by American standards) roads. I chose the wrong product for the job. I still believe Xidas are probably the best dampers available for track work and well-surfaced street driving.

The reason the dampers are bottoming is you don't have enough preload. We roll over rounded 10" high kerbs at 100mph and don't bottom. If you're hitting 3-5" rounded bumps at 70mph and bottoming severely, you don't have enough preload and maybe have the damping set too soft.

Full stiff = position #1 / full clockwise to first detent. You'll probably need damping set somewhere between 4-7 all around for your roads.

Try running more preload and taking out all spacers. I think your spacers are fouling things up.

Your roads are what these were built for, not just smooth race tracks.

Edit: Just looked at your order. You have 450/300. You need more spring. I'd suggest 550/350.
Fix that rake. 4.5" front, 4.75" rear. It will work, trust me.

I don't have any spacers on the front, and only 10mm spacing at the rear. If I run any more preload at the back, I run out of droop travel.

We've tried most positions on the dial. 6 all around works quite well… 3 seems to work better.

Hitting a single 10" kerb with stiff springs is, I believe, a different situation to the conditions that I'm bottoming under. I'm running the softest springs you supply, and until we raised the rear up another 10mm last week (which all but cured the bottoming, but left me slightly short of droop) the car bottomed over repeated whoops in the road. Ie, where the road has unevenly subsided towards the edge, leaving an absolute roller coaster of tarmac. So in certain situations, especially under power at speed, the car lightens up over one rise, hits the next, lightens up, hits the next, etc. It's a huge test of a car - a new RS6 had the same problem. All at more than 70mph. Winding up the damping to try and control the bounce and keep the car stable made the dampers too firm in most other situations.
Now that I've raised the car with preload, like you've suggested, and nearly cured the bottoming, I'm running out of droop on similar roads. I'll have to take a video some time to show you what I mean.

lol nice video

I'm not going to lie, that was a badass video. It appealed to my short attention span perfectly.

Team 949 Racing gives it two enthusiastic thumbs up!

Don't worry Emilio, these Xida are going into another European miata :brain:

I just tried running various damping settings on the Xidas again. No luck. As I said in a previous post, I'm basically looking for tarmac rally dampers, except my priority is comfort over speed. Tarmac rally dampers are not short in body and in stroke.

I'm going with longer dampers, more stroke, slightly softer springs. It works.

I will fix the rake as soon as the new dampers go on. The ComedyRake is definitely screwing with the dynamics of my car. Hopefully proper rake with bring the rear of the car a little more into play mid corner too.

Emilio, when I first set up the car, I followed your alignment and rake settings to the letter because I trusted that you know how to set up a car, and I still trust you. What i don't believe is that Xidas were designed for terribly-surfaced road driving. They're race dampers that work very well on the street. If you designed a damper from scratch for extremely bumpy road driving, you can't tell me that you wouldn't use a longer travel design.

It broke.










…nah not really. Reliable cars are a bit boring for internet blogging, huh.


:party:

That 5 second video was just more foreplay! C'mon owenwilliams put out! ;)