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MSM engine swap in 90 Miata
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I signed up for the forum a few years ago but I haven't been active aside from browsing every once in awhile. I am preparing to swap a Mazdaspeed engine in my Miata and figured I would post the progress here for whoever is interested.
This is my Miata, 1990 that I use for rallycross. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1317916911 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1317916911 I recently picked up this to transplant in for a little extra power. I got the whole swap (engine with all accessories, intercooler and piping, and complete exhaust) for around what a 1.6L GReddy turbo kit goes for. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1317916911 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1317916911 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1317916911 I also have a Mazdaspeed suspension setup to go on the car. I am going to use Megasquirt to control it and ditch the MSM harness and ECU. Basically it will be treated as a 1.8 swap with an aftermarket turbo. I still need to figure out a few details such as what coils/sensors to keep from the MSM engine and what to swap over from the 1.6. |
so you got the whole setup for just over 1k? sweet deal.
good luck |
Yep, $1100 for the whole thing.
I am not going to use most of the things. I will use the 1.6L CAS, OPS, CTS, etc. I am going with different intercooler piping and a MAF delete. I also don't need the PS pump or AC compressor since my car has neither. Also need to switch to a 94-97 alternator. I am probably going to use the coils from the MSM, I just need to figure out how to wire them. Also going with an aftermarket BOV to replace the broken stock plastic one. |
why not retain the msm wiring and run diypnp ms2extra using the NB sensors which work a LOT better than that POS na cas?
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Ease of installation/get it running quicker/I just bought a 90-93 MSPNP.
I am only looking for <200hp for now. Later on I will probably upgrade and use the MSM sensors and build a more capable MS. |
Damn! im jelly you got a deal that good! hmm interesting. any reason why you picked the 1.6 MS over the 1.8 MS?
also, do you know if the 1.6 and 1.8 (na) CAS are the same thing? thx |
they are both crap.
i suggest you "do it right the 1st time around" but that's just my opinion |
Originally Posted by blindboxx2334
(Post 780435)
any reason why you picked the 1.6 MS over the 1.8 MS?
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hmm thats cool. i didnt know you could run a 1.6 MS on a 1.8.
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(Posting from my phone.)
Thumbs down on ms1 running a cas. Should have gone for a diypnp running the msm crank/cam sensors. |
Originally Posted by blindboxx2334
(Post 780468)
hmm thats cool. i didnt know you could run a 1.6 MS on a 1.8.
Good luck with the swap! |
(Posting from my phone.)
But the mspnp cannot read the NB sensor until it's upgrade to msII |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 780436)
they are both crap.
i suggest you "do it right the 1st time around" but that's just my opinion
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 780487)
(Posting from my phone.)
Thumbs down on ms1 running a cas. Should have gone for a diypnp running the msm crank/cam sensors.
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 780490)
(Posting from my phone.)
But the mspnp cannot read the NB sensor until it's upgrade to msII |
Thanks for all the feedback.
I am going with the MS1 and CAS for ease of installation as stated before, I know it isn't the best option available. I still have the option of DIYPNP and the NB sensors since I haven't started the swap yet. What changes to the 90 harness are needed to run it? Would I just run the wiring for the MSM sensors directly to the MS and not use any of the factory connections (except the plugs at the sensors of course)? |
well you could just use the msm harness and get a diypnp and it will all just plug-n-play iirc.
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(Posting from my phone.)
Not much you'd have to run. Just two wires to run seq. Injection. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 780436)
they are both crap.
i suggest you "do it right the 1st time around" but that's just my opinion
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 780487)
(Posting from my phone.)
Thumbs down on ms1 running a cas. Should have gone for a diypnp running the msm crank/cam sensors. can you run the 1.6 cas and the msm crank sensor?
Originally Posted by RotorNutFD3S
(Post 780488)
In most cases you choose the ECU based on the year of the chassis of the car for wiring harness compatibility and make adjustments and modifications as needed from there. So a 1.8 engine in a 1.6 chassis would use a 90-93 ECU and (for a random example) a 1.6 in a 1.8 chassis, or a rotary even, would use an ECU for whatever 94-05 chassis it is, and so on and so forth.
Good luck with the swap! example: 1.8 na chassis with nb1 motor: why would you buy a 94-97 ms, when it seems as if it would be much less of a headache to buy the computer that's specifically made for that motor (esp. since its a completely diff motor, and 1.6 ms with a rotary??? now im really lost :sad2:) plus then wouldnt you run into tuning nightmares? (trying to get a 1.6 computer to tell a 1.8 how to run). and to my understanding, it will pretty much be plug and play (MS to engine harness) if you match the correct computer to the engine, i also dont see why youd create that other headache for yourself... (im not trying to stir some shitz up. im just trying to learn) |
99-00 nb and all msm's use a crank angle sensor and a cam sensor on the front of the engine and not a traditional CAS like the na's use
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 780529)
99-00 nb and all msm's use a crank angle sensor and a cam sensor on the front of the engine and not a traditional CAS like the na's use
and do the na's even have a crank angle sensor? sorry for all the ?'s i just get more confused the more i learn..... |
the CAS is run off the timing belt, so there is timing error due to jitter.
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Originally Posted by blindboxx2334
(Post 780525)
example: 1.8 na chassis with nb1 motor: why would you buy a 94-97 ms, when it seems as if it would be much less of a headache to buy the computer that's specifically made for that motor (esp. since its a completely diff motor, and 1.6 ms with a rotary??? now im really lost :sad2:) plus then wouldnt you run into tuning nightmares? (trying to get a 1.6 computer to tell a 1.8 how to run). and to my understanding, it will pretty much be plug and play (MS to engine harness) if you match the correct computer to the engine, i also dont see why youd create that other headache for yourself... (im not trying to stir some shitz up. im just trying to learn) The typical 1.8 swap into a 1.6 has been done many times. You just use the computer and sensors from the 1.6. The 1.6 ECU can control the 1.8 just fine. The difference with my swap is that I am also adding boost, so just like I would use MS if I boosted the 1.6, I am using it to control the 1.8 without switching over the whole harness for the MSM. The difference in opinion on which ECU comes from the fact that I already have the wiring and sensors to run the better MSM setup but I am using the outdated parts anyway. Hopefully that makes it more clear. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 780534)
the CAS is run off the timing belt, so there is timing error due to jitter.
i googled "miata CAS" and i got results that both said "crank" and "cam" |
Originally Posted by jdmae92
(Post 780535)
The typical 1.8 swap into a 1.6 has been done many times. You just use the computer and sensors from the 1.6. The 1.6 ECU can control the 1.8 just fine. The difference with my swap is that I am also adding boost, so just like I would use MS if I boosted the 1.6, I am using it to control the 1.8 without switching over the whole harness for the MSM.
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Originally Posted by blindboxx2334
(Post 780536)
do you mean crank angle sensor or cam angle sensor? and wat car? na or nb?
i googled "miata CAS" and i got results that both said "crank" and "cam" na uses just cam I mean can it be done the way OP is trying to do it? YES. Its just not the best way of going about it, and since he has the harness and sensors already might as well do it right. |
Originally Posted by blindboxx2334
(Post 780536)
do you mean crank angle sensor or cam angle sensor? and wat car? na or nb?
i googled "miata CAS" and i got results that both said "crank" and "cam" cool story bro. ignore my wisdom, it's okay. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 780539)
nb uses both, crank and cam
na uses just cam I mean can it be done the way OP is trying to do it? YES. Its just not the best way of going about it, and since he has the harness and sensors already might as well do it right. brain-wut did i do? i read everything you said and was still confused, we were talking about two things that have the same abbreviation, CAS, so i was trying to get some clarification.. |
rawr
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:hustler:
ill stop with the questions... for today. :rofl: |
CAS =/= CAS?
:eek5: Mind blown :giggle: |
Originally Posted by blindboxx2334
(Post 780537)
if you swap over the 1.6 ms on your MSM motor, wouldnt you have to use the 1.6 engine wiring harness? that just seems like too much of a pain, for no gain.:confused:
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Nice find on the MSM motor. I can't blame you for not wanting to swap the harness over, I'm sure there are some benefits to be had but seems like it would be a nightmare. In fact, I'm having flashbacks to...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1317940086 |
sounds good, i didnt know miata engine harness were linked to the chassis harness, i thought they were two separate things... ive yet to actually look at an engine harness thats off a miata. but atleast you'll only have to modify the ends of the harness for the sensors, versus the whole thing itself.
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 780539)
nb uses both, crank and cam
na uses just cam The NA CAS sends both cam and crank signals too, they're driven off the cam which is why the NB sensors are more accurate, the crank sensor is actually on the crank so isn't effected by timing belt slop. Whilst it's technically possible to run an engine from a cam signal only, you need slightly more teeth than the NA CAS provides :noob:. Cliffs: NA = CAS which sends both crank and cam signals NB = Separate crank and cam sensors, crank on the.... crank and cam on the cam. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 780490)
(Posting from my phone.)
But the mspnp cannot read the NB sensor until it's upgrade to msII Sure it can. Grind the two TDC teeth off the crank wheel and you're gtg. |
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Well it's been awhile since I posted before I actually made any progress. I have some free time over the holiday break so I pulled the car into the garage to pull the 1.6 and mount the MSM engine up.
The wonderful garage...better than working in the driveway I guess. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1324353176 Squirrels love my engine bay: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1324353176 Progress after a few hours: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1324353176 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1324353176 |
I'm toying with the idea of selling my old MSpnp9093 if you're interested. I'm selling it so I can switch over to a crank sensor on my 99-swap in the 1.6 car.
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I already have a MSPNP to hook up.
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Not many updates for awhile, I have been working on it slowly. I have the MSM engine mounted now, just need some more parts to get it together.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325992872 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325992872 Right now I have the intake off to remove the VTCS butterflies. I also need to get a 99-00 fuel rail and intercooler setup. |
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Looks like I forgot to update this thread. The Miata has been running in rallycross for the whole season so far and doing quite well. As long as I am driving well it is very fast.
Some pictures and video. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1346205857 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1346205857 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1346205857 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1346205857 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1346205857 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1346205857 |
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