TRU in Indy might have some, depending on your definition of high quality. They probably have an XSPower or two in stock. I'm sure i have a controller or two laying around if you need a backup plan. They'll be homebrew grainger/ball-spring deals, but they work.

I also have a neat little basic EBC. Runs a mac valve, on/off toggle switch, and a knob. Makes for a two-stage. Off = wastegate, On = whatever you have the knob turned to.

Thanks for the heads up.

They have a cheap knock off in stock, and can get me a Hallman later. I will go pick it up Saturday. I will try out the cheap one and if it serves my needs I will just keep it.

Keith

Any idea what time you'll be in town on Saturday? I live maybe 8 minutes from TRU.

They open at 11... so I was planning to show up around then. Pic they sent doesn't look like any MBC I have seen.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1409949202

Keith

Turbosmart in-cabin knockoff. That thing isn't going to work worth a shit.

PM me your phone number, i'll see what i can dig up tonite.

UP NEXT!

I am going through my whole collection of springs for the external wastegate. I will do data logs for each spring, show spool up and peak boost vs what the spring is supposed to provide, along with a virtual dyno run at that boost pressure. I will be trying out the SAE correction since is if 92 fucking degrees here right now!

Keith

Allllrighty then!

With the 4.4 psi spring installed I get the following spool up data:

2000 1.6 psi
2500 2.6 psi
3000 4.2 psi
3500 5.0 psi
4000 5.2 psi
4500 6.1 psi
5000 6.4 psi
5500 6.4 psi
6000 6.5 psi
6500 6.2 psi
7000 7.2 psi

And here is the virtual dyno using 29.99 pressure and 92 deg F.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1409959528

Keith

Now some results for my 5.8 psi spring. Hitting around 9 psi with this one:

2000 1.6 psi
2500 2.8 psi
3000 4.5 psi
3500 7.0 psi
4000 7.7 psi
4500 8.5 psi
5000 8.8 psi
5500 8.7 psi
6000 8.8 psi
6500 8.0 psi
7000 9.0 psi

And here is the virtual dyno from this spring. Temperature was down to 85F

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1409967474

Keith

your setup creeps. period.

not the worst thing in the world, but yeah....

Ben is going to give me a spare manual boost controller he has in the AM, so this is my final update before gaining some real control of my boost pressure... swapping springs to make a change sucks ass.

Here is the spool up data from running the 7.3 psi spring.

2000 1.5 psi
2500 2.8 psi
3000 5.1 psi
3500 7.8 psi
4000 9.0 psi
4500 9.4 psi
5000 10.3 psi
5500 10.6 psi
6000 10.6 psi
6500 9.8 psi
7000 10.8 psi

And the virtual dyno run at this boost pressure. Conditions were 71F 98% humidity, and 30.05"hg.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1409979286

I am pretty sure that my first virtual dyno run was done with the windows down, and I don't have the weather data from that run to make it SAE like the rest of them.

Later,

Keith

PS: I was estimating 2650 for car weight with me in it, but tonight I went to the local truck scales and with a full tank of fuel, me, all normal junk like spare and jack car weighed in at 2660.

I put a cheap (free to me, thanks Ben!) MBC on the car and aimed for 12 psi. God do I hate boost creep! Without boost creep I would be hitting 11.5 to 12 psi by 4000 RPM... as it is, I have to get the wastegate to start opening early, and I am only hitting 10 psi by 4000 RPM, and then creeping from there up to my peak boost.

Here is the spool data:

2000 1.5 psi
2500 3.1 psi
3000 5.1 psi
3500 8.6 psi
4000 10.3 psi
4500 11.2 psi
5000 11.9 psi
5500 12.2 psi
6000 12.1 psi
6500 11.0 psi
7000 12.5 psi

And here is the virtual dyno graph of the data log.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410103588

Next step is just a hair more fine tuning now that I am hitting my desired boost pressure, and next week a trip to a REAL dyno as well as a trip to the closest 1/4 mile track.

Later,

Keith

A question for the knowledgeable in the group:

Would my boost creep be mitigated / eliminated by switching to a dump pipe on the external WG rather than the poorly located return to the BEGi downpipe?

Keith

that usually does help
going to be crazy loud tho

Yeah, my first turbo car had an external dump, loud as fuck at WOT. I have thought of actually putting a small muffler under the car with a turn down at the end with the dump pipe routed to it.

Why couldn't BEGi design the fucking thing correctly in the first place?

Keith

Corky was too busy coming up with new non sequiturs.

Do NOT make friends with Stephanie! Here friends seem to die a lot.

A couple weeks ago when I couldn't get an answer out of her, it was because she had to attend a funeral, this last time I e-mailed her three days in a row with the same questions, a friend of hers had a stoke and died.

These may be real deaths, so I don't want to make too much fun... but hire someone to fill in if you are going to be gone so much! Personal tragedy is no excuse for corporate production or customer service failure.

My intake build sheet is on the work bench... when it is done on Friday it and the dummy MAF pipe will be sent out for powder coating. The same guy doing the intake has a picture of my engine bay so he can make a heat shield...

So, apparently they do not have a standardized heat shield for the S6 setup on an NB1.

WTF?

I actually asked Stephanie once if this was the first 99 with the S6 kit they had ever done when asking why there were no instructions, and I was told no.

I think that was a bald faced lie.

Parts don't fit right, there are no instructions, it has boost creep, overall it is a bad design... I think I am the beta tester for this fucking kit.

Keith

Do you have it in you to take it all off and start over again?


Because this is ridiculous and i'd LOVE to see either Stephanie or Corky set foot in this thread. I'd love even more for you to send the whole kit back.

Did you tell them that the reason the heat shield doesn't fit is because your non-standard brake lines are in the way, or did you blame it all on BEGI?

Saw it in person. Brake line is not the issue.

I blamed every fucking bit of it on BEGi.

The wastegate dump back to the downpipe is in the way, not my brake line. If I take my wastegate off the damn heat shield fits fine and clears the brake line with about half an inch to spare.

Keith

Dude, trust me, this is pretty much their standard for doing business these days.

The worst part is that they are getting away with this crap for a long time now simply because they USED to be a solid/honest company that ran well and made cool parts for our cars. We all loved and respected them, and now they can operate like crap because of their reputation in the past. I doubt that will keep going on for too much longer though.

I'm not going to go into detail about how many flat out lies Stephanie bs'd me with, and that was for a SIMPLE log manifold and S downpipe that I was waiting for over a month. I believe I still have the email string saved. After I threw a fit and started getting really vocal online, Corky contacted me personally and asked to tell him what the problem was. I did, he apologized, told me "we'll pound on Steph for all this crap so she stops doing it", and finally after that I had a tracking number for my parts.

These horror stories like yours are literally everywhere. Just do some searching and you come up with dozens of horror stories exactly like yours. It's the standard now for them. And the worst part? They completely and utterly deny it. 100% denial.

Its so sad, but I can't see them operating this way for too much longer and staying in business. Unless of course they are doing other stuff on the side (or doing miata parts on the side of a bigger business). I just don't see it. You can't possibly have a successful company in this day and age that is run this way.

I am amazed by how accurate virtual dyno is when you have a correct car weight and accurate weather information for SAE correction!

Here is the virtual dyno of my car at 12.5 psi.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410651312

And here is the actual dynojet dyno sheet of my car at 12.5 psi.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410651312

The dyno operators at this shop like to use STD correction factor because it gives larger numbers, and not realizing this I was worried about my torque being over 251 lb-ft when I was aiming for between 230 and 240 lb-ft... so my subsequent runs were at 12.0 psi and 11.5 psi.

I think I will probably end up turning boost back up to 12.0 for the drag strip on Sunday, and for daily driving aim for around 11.5 psi. Then when I swap to the snow tires and hard top I will swap to my lightest spring for the wastegate and run spring pressure since traction will be an issue :)

More comparisons to come!

Keith

You always hear the supercharger enthusiasts talking about low end torque production...

Here is my car when it had the M45 in "stock" configuration (unported, stock pulleys, 5.5 psi) compared to the GT2860R at 12.5 psi.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410651747

I am not illustrating peak power... look at the low end! From just off idle to redline the GT2860R made more torque than the M45! This is on the same car, on the same dyno with both graphs SAE corrected.

Keith

Here is the 12.0 psi dyno run.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410652015

And here is the 11.5 psi dyno run.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410652015

Keith

that looks awesome :party:

and you're about at the limit of those rods.

what a difference with mbc too, that looks like some great torque onset.

supercharger overlay is just funny:giggle:

Drag strip results!

Out of 5 runs I only got one clean pass, and that one was with slow shifting to get a clean run. First run I missed 5th, (passed reverse detent, had to come back and go up). Second pass missed 3rd. Third pass (these were back to back passes) I smoked the shit out of the clutch. Waited an hour for the clutch to cool off and recover a bit, then did my final two runs. Fourth run missed 3rd and 5th, but not as bad. Fifth and final run was clean, but I got a clean run by doing really slow 4th to 5th shift.

60' . . . . . . . . . . . 2.143
330' . . . . . . . . . . 5.8922
1/8th ET . . . . . . . 8.8682
1/8th MPH . . . . . 85.09
1/4 ET . . . . . . . . 13.5783
1/4 MPH . . . . . . 106.86

Keith

<edit>Looked at data logs from last two runs, and I was taking over a full second to do the 4 to 5 shift. If I try to do the 4 to 5 quickly I slam it over into the "nothing forward, Revers back" slot. If I can get a 3.636:1 ring and pinion I will be able to stay in 4th up to trap speeds in the 110 mph region. Also, the clutch I have is marginal at best for the power levels I am making... thanks again Stephanie!</edit>

Well, my new (to me) wheels and tires will be arriving on Wednesday (15 x 9 6UL's with 225/45/15 RS3's) so after my Dentist appointment in the AM I will be doing my Xida coil overs! I assume I should have an alignment done with the new shoes on the car after the suspension?

Only other things to report are that the clutch sucks, and I need two separate Ethanol maps... noticed I was running uber rich after my last fill up... it is fall now so we have E70 instead of E85.

Keith

what clutch are you running btw?

ACT heavy duty with street disk. Should have gone with ACT Extreme with street disk or 6 puck.

Keith

Well, the suspension and 15 x 9 6UL's are on the car now!

Here is the new tire next to my old summer tire.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410995602

And here it is next to my winter setup.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1410995602

The new wheel and tire package at 32 lbs each is only half a pound heavier per corner than the stock 15 x 6 wheels with 195/50/15's.

With the current generation Xida coilovers with the lower spring mount just high enough to put a tinny bit of pre-tension on the springs (just enough to seat the springs), the car sits at 3.5" at the pinch welds front and back.... and you can't get it off a lift without re-lifting it and putting some 2 x 4's under the tires :) I did the measuring after I got it off the lift BTW.

Since the car was 6" at the pinch welds on stock suspension that means I currently have a 2.5" drop. I think I will raise it up about 1" to 1.5" from where it is now and then take it in for an alignment to Flyin Miata's "street car" settings.

Later,

Keith

Glad you like them Keith, deff an improvement! I'll regret selling them if I ever buy another Miata.

After trying to call BEGi about my still missing parts (correct intake pipe, maf delete pipe, mounting bolts for radiator cover, mounting bolt for oil / water distribution block, and last but not least the correct heat shield for my kit) I figured out why I fucked up BEGi's name on my video's! I keep calling it Bell Engineering Group inc. instead of (as shown on their web site and any invoices /paperwork you get from them) Bell Experimental Group inc.

When the phone answering machine picked up it was Stephanie's voice saying "Bell Engineering blah blah blah... and I am pretty sure that is how she answers the phone in person as well.

The really fucked up thing is their mailing address is "Bell Engineering" so I can't even blame Stephanie for not knowing the name of the company she works for...

Keith

I was disappointed with the tires, they are pretty used up from track use, and the one with the screw or bolt or what ever the hell it is (too close to sidewall to patch) was a shocker... but the wheels themselves were in excellent condition, and the damaged tire still holds air. I will live with the tires for the remainder of this year until I put the snow tires on, and then get some new tires next spring.

Keith

Are you using a ball/spring mbc? Are you using this MBC + an EBC or just MBC?
How did you route it? I assume boost source>mbc>lower port of EWG leaving upper port open to atmosphere?

Thanks, I am building a similar setup

Ball and spring MBC only.

I swapped out the free one from Ben for a Halman MBC for ease of adjustment, and had identical spool up and stability as the free one. Since mine has creep issues I am sourced right at the compressor housing to the Halman, and from the Halman to the bottom port on the EWG. If I didn't have creep issues I would source from the intercooler pipe just before the throttle body.

Later,

Keith

Boost creep from hell!

Well, before I swapped to the Tial BOV my boost creep for the 4.4 psi spring in my external wastegate had my boost peaking at 7.1 psi. Now after swapping in the Tial BOV and intake pipe without a flange for the BOV recirce line I am now peaking at 10.5 psi! My boost curve looks like I have a Rotrex supercharger rather than a turbocharger! Here is the spool data for comparison:

Leaky BOV Tial BOV
2000 1.5 1.5
2500 2.6 3.2
3000 4.3 4.9
3500 5.0 5.5
4000 5.2 5.8
4500 6.1 6.6
5000 6.4 7.1
5500 6.4 8.0
6000 6.5 8.7
6500 6.2 8.9
7000 7.1 10.5

Here is the virtual dyno sheet for the low boost wastegate spring with the Tial BOV.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1413330063

Later,

Keith

I e-mailed Stephanie again today asking about my heat shield. She said they have looked at the pictures I sent, and think that the best solution is for me to mark up the one I have now showing what changes need to be made, and send it back to them so they can modify it. What I am hearing in my head is that they don't have a pattern to make the correct heat shield for my turbo setup, and that you don't want to randomly try different things over and over trying to get it right...

The "don't have a pattern" and "can't get it right to save out lives" is that mode of operation they have been in since I started trying to get the correct parts. The intake tube I have now is still a 2.5" tube where it mounts up to the 3" inlet on my turbo. It also has a weird molded in divot for clearance... but there is nothing anywhere near the divot that needs to be clearenced. I got tired of trying on that item and just gave up. A 2.5" tube that flared out to 3" at the connection may not have been ideal but it would have worked better than the one they sent me. If I remove the AC and PS from my car I will make my own 3" intake that actually fits correctly. I have a feeling I have to do the same thing with the heat shield.

The fact that this setup has horrible boost creep means I will have to re-do the down pipe, (it doesn't fit right anyway, Ben commented on my exhaust leaks when he rode in my car). I will get ride of the retarded slip fit wastegate return line and just go with a dump tube to try and reduce my boost creep issues, and get rid of some of the exhaust leaks in the process.

Disgustedly yours,

Keith

This thread is one big cautionary tale. Is an FM down pipe in your future?

No, unless they make one for a Tial .86 V-band housing with external wastegate. Even if they do, they probably mount the turbo in a better position so the downpipe would not fit my setup.

I need to pull the current down pipe, cut it and rotate the top part about 3 degrees to get it to line up with the turbo outlet correctly, and have it welded back together. While they are doing that they can cut the inlet for the wastegate return off, and patch the hole.

The wastegate return line being a slip fit is the dumbest design I can imagine. They make flex sections for pipes that small, so why not use one so you could use a real non-leaky V-Band flange?

Everything Corky publishes about the divorced wastegate setups says he has it return to the main exhaust stream 15" to 20" down stream. Mine dumps back into the main exhaust stream about 2" from the turbine outlet. How he thought this was a good idea I will never know.

Keith

<edit>I just got a brilliant idea! I can get another 3" V-band clamp, and have it installed where I cut the down pipe so I can rotate it as needed to line up to the turbine outlet rather than welding it together and hoping I got it right.</edit>

Heh.. yeap, sounds like the Bell experience. If I may make a suggestion..

Bandsaw. Bench vice. Big fucking hammer.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413896657
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1413896657

I'm taking this as proof that you are the tester, Keith.

Fuck those guys.

Considered a fun lawsuit or a chargeback on your card with the notation of "I still haven't received my bolt-on turbo kit?"

Well, the Miata is officially no longer my daily driver. It will be a summer car only from now on, leaving me more time to work on it, and not have to get it back together in time for work after a weekend of wrenching.

New car (new to me) is a 2011 Chevy Volt. My daily commute is less than the electric range of the car, and I havn't purchased gasoline since buying it on the 1st of November.

Keith

I'll take all of this off your hands once BEGI sends you your new kit!

Very slight digression - how are you liking the volt?

I am considering it as a used daily someday when the prices come down. How does it drive? How much range are you getting out of it electric only?

Over all I like it, but I would hold out for the 2nd gen release. It should drive prices down on used 1st gen volts. Mine is a higher mileage used car (mostly highway driven) and I got it for 15K

I had damn near a full page reply to your question, hit "submit reply" and had the "hey if you want to reply to messages join up or log in" page pop open for me. I was fucking logged in and am too pissed off to re-type a full page of review on the volt.

Keith

Lets try this again:

Electric Range: Very weather dependent. The battery pack works best within a certain temperature range, in cold weather (northern winters) it uses battery power to heat the battery pack, in hot weather (desert heat) it uses battery power to cool the battery pack. In "normal" winter weather (25F to 35F) I am getting around 28 to 30 miles on battery power alone since I am willing to just use the electric heated seats instead of heating the air in the car. Using the heater reduces range substantially. In "warmer than average" winter weather (40F to 50F) I am getting around 32 to 36 miles on battery power alone. This is winter driving, on snow tires instead of the low rolling resistance stock tires. I purchased the car in November so I don't have summer driving ranges yet, but I speculate mid 30's to low 40's. These numbers are all based on my daily commute, round trip of 28 miles with 13 miles of that at 40 mph and the other 15 miles at 60 mph.

Fuel economy: After the battery is depleted, the car seamlessly transitions to the gasoline engine. I am not sure if the gasoline engine is noisy or it just seams that way after the silent operation of the electric only driving experience. You will notice that engine RPM has little relation to how fast you are going, and only a loose relationship with accelerator pedal changes. When going on a long highway trip at a steady 70 MPH I get about 38 mpg on the gasoline engine.

Things I don't like:

1. Rear visibility sucks ass when backing up. No problem with lane changes and daily driving, but backing into my car port parking spot at home is a bitch... the backup camera doesn't help much even if it is clean enough to provide a clear image. Normally (at least in winter) the backup camera is crudded up to the point of being useless.

2. In cold weather below 25F the car runs the gasoline engine for 1 to 2 miles out of every 10 miles traveled. They portray this as something needed to keep the engine healthy. This is a load of shit! Just like any other normal car, the car can sit un-used for a week at -10F without damage to the gasoline engine... so moving at the same temperature while not running the gasoline engine would not damage it. The real reason the gasoline engine is run periodically at low temperature is so people like me will run the heater. If the engine is going to run anyway, generating waste heat I may as well run the heater. This avoids having customers like me die of hypothermia because we refuse to run the electric heat :) I personally would rather dress warm and not have the engine run at low temperatures... but I don't have this option.

3. The center console controls are all touch sensitive spots on the plastic rather than being real buttons and knobs. This means that you can't operate anything with gloves on, and also that you can't operate anything by feel... you have to look away from the road to make even the simplest adjustment to the climate control or audio systems.

My only other complaint is not about the car itself, but at Chevrolet and how they market the car both as a company and down at the dealership level.

At the company level they have not clued in to the idea that almost every upgrade to the 1st generation volt (2011 to 2015) is a software upgrade. People like me would be perfectly willing to pay a fee to have upgrades like the new driving mode (hold mode, look up the differences in the features for different years) and even improved fuel economy out of the same engine in the newer cars with no physical changes. I am not going to pay a huge amount of money to trade in one used volt for another to get the upgraded software... but I would pay them a reasonable fee for something they can do at virtually zero cost to themselves.

At the dealership level they haven't figured out that you need to plug in an electric car! When I initially test drove my car, the battery was completely flat. One of the coolest features of the car is it's near silent operation, but I didn't get to see that on my first test drive. I had to make them plug the car in to their rapid charger while I went to lunch and then I came back for a second test drive. I was much more impressed with the electric car actually driving on the battery!

From completely dead to full charge takes 10 to 11 hours in the winter, not sure how much faster in summer that would be. I just have the standard 110 volt charging system, and the only time I wish I had the 240 volt charging system is if I need to run some errands after work. I can either use gasoline or do them on a day off. In the summer I can just run errands in the Miata.

So, overall I love it. After my recent long highway trip (150 miles round trip, the first 25 on the battery) my average fuel economy is 148 mpg. Before the recent long highway trip I was up well over 200 mpg. Since Nov 1st when I purchased the car I have taken two of these long highway trips, and have used a total of 17 gallons of gasoline in 4 and a half months. With no more long trips planned and no more below 25F weather expected, I don't expect to purchase any more gas until some time next winter, and to be averaging well over 500 mpg by then.

Later,

Keith


<edit>Mild weather range update! Temperature was 60F today and I was able to get 42.2 miles on the battery with 12 miles at 55 mph and 30 miles at 40 mph.</edit>
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1426484545

I got bored and the weather was good so I did some VICS cross over point testing today to see if it had any effect on my weird upper RPM boost dip. I did pulls ranging from having the VICS activate at 2500 RPM to having the VICS totally disabled. Nothing I did had any effect on the upper RPM boost dip, but I did collect some interesting data.

With VICS disabled vs active from 2500 RPM to redline.

With the VICS active the whole run you get about 14 more peak HP at 6200 RPM and with VICS disabled you get about 12 more lb-ft of torque at 4300 RPM and more overall mid-range torque from 3400 RPM to 5200 RPM

The graphs from the runs where the cross over was 5000 RPM and 5,500 RPM are almost identical and show the mid range of the disabled VICS and the top end of the active VICS... looks like Mazda got it right! I will be setting my activation point at 5200 RPM.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1426483656
Red is active VICS from 2500 to Redline, Blue is VICS disabled, and green is VICS crossover at 5,500 RPM.

Keith

cool testing, but I'm sure you mean VICS

Damn it, I tried looking it up and I thought VICS was the butterflies in the VVT intake manifold and VTCS was for the NB1... I take it I got them backwards?

Keith

Did some editing to correct, thanks for the heads up.

Yup: variable intake vs variable tumble or something like that.

Nobody has ever gotten around to doing the VICS vs Square Top vs VTCS vs gutted VICS vs gutted VTCS have they? I know it was planned at one point but it fell through. Has anyone done ANY back to back intake manifold testing with verifiable dyno or virtual dyno results?

Keith

Jeremy at FM did, but the results weren't what people expected so most people dismissed them.

--Ian

Yeah FM did. I didn't dismiss them, but would love to see someone do more :)

The biggest thing I've seen proven so far is they're all close below about 5, and that the vtcs drop like a ROCK past 6500