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NB1 Budget Turbo Build with Minimal Fabrication
I have been prepping to do a budget turbo build on my 2000 LS here for the last few months. Now that I have all of my major components, I figured I should go ahead and start a build thread.
My goal with the components I have accumulated thus far is to get the car running on wastegate pressure with stock injectors and stock clutch with minimal fabrication. From there I will work on turning the boost up until I slip the clutch or run out of fuel. I will replace the limiting component\s and then continue until the other component is a limiting factor. Based on my research though, it seems that I will run out of fuel and start slipping the clutch at about the same time. At this point I, hope to be happy with the cars performance on 91 and will just work getting things fine tuned. If happiness is not achieved, I suppose I will be forced to move on to E85. Here is a spreadsheet listing all of my components and their cost. I have been doing my best to save money by purchasing as many items as possible on Ebay during their 15% off sales. I’ll go ahead and list my components here as well:
While I wait for warmer weather, I am going to start doing as much off the car assembly and prep as possible. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f0944855db.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...95a8af4c0e.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...276ddb1b72.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e6e48e3beb.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...fb9ec326c8.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c9f42d0ff4.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c853a85ffa.jpg |
I have run into my first issues with parts. The Mac boost control solenoid I ordered ended up being a fake / counterfeit. When I started questioning the selling about why the paint was flaking off the valve body, they kindly offered me a refund. From my research, it seems like the "P" cast into the valve body is a dead giveaway for a fake.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a2fa89e91b.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...077ed1c0f1.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d77a770901.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...0fc78d664b.jpg The second issue I have had is my oil feed tee was not properly deburring from the factory. There is a nice large chunk of stainless hanging inside it. I haven’t decided yet if I want to debure it myself or notify the seller. Since the part was less than $7, and took weeks to arrive, I am leaning towards just deburring it myself. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ec15a0c717.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b513e209a0.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...71c1bef3b1.jpg |
Looks like you’re off to a good start, but it sounds like you are not planning on installing the megasquirt until later. I’d reccomend at minimum to get that installed and working well before dissassmbly begins just so you have a feel for it. Another suggestion would be a few feet of fire sleeve for the water and oil lines to keep them safe from all the heat. I’ll be following this!
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I have been debating whether to do the MegaSquirt install before the pulling the car apart. Either way, it will be a while before I do anything on the car itself and I will definitely consider your suggestion. I will also look into the fire sleeve. Heat management is something I have not fully worked through either. I am currently trying to decided if I should use a turbo blanked and wrap the downpipe as well.
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Interesting note about the fake ebc. Is there any downside to running it anyways or do you anticipate it being unreliable and/or failing?
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Yes, do the MS before turbo stuff and spend a few weeks learning to tune. |
You should install the megasquirt first like everyone else. It's the right way.
Don't worry about adding the ebc until you have injectors and a reason or capacity to turn up the power. Don't put the cart before the horse. |
Originally Posted by skylinecalvin
(Post 1517694)
Interesting note about the fake ebc. Is there any downside to running it anyways or do you anticipate it being unreliable and/or failing?
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Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1517703)
You should install the megasquirt first like everyone else. It's the right way.
Don't worry about adding the ebc until you have injectors and a reason or capacity to turn up the power. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Originally Posted by Schroedinger
(Post 1517695)
Yes, do the MS before turbo stuff and spend a few weeks learning to tune.
Originally Posted by festersays
(Post 1517662)
Looks like you’re off to a good start, but it sounds like you are not planning on installing the megasquirt until later. I’d reccomend at minimum to get that installed and working well before dissassmbly begins just so you have a feel for it. Another suggestion would be a few feet of fire sleeve for the water and oil lines to keep them safe from all the heat. I’ll be following this!
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Learning to tune is like running face first into a brick wall. The less questions you have about what is causing the issue (IE: the more stock the car is) the easier it is going to be to climb over.
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Not much of an update, but I did get a few more supplies this week.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...25e963bd78.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3109652f35.jpg |
I am looking into some thermal management products, but my knowledge is very limited on this subject and I was wondering if I could get some feedback / recommendations.
I want to wrap my downpipe and am trying to decide between these three wrap options (cheapest to most expensive):
Lastly, another member festersays recommended fire sleeve for some of my various lines and hoses. Is there a brand that anyone recommends? Also, is this product appropriate for insulating the following:
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Turbo blankets are fabric, fabric soaks up oil. Find me a miata that doesn't have an oil leak somewhere. Turbo blanket sits right on a hot turbo....
Use a heat sheild. |
As others have said. Do the MS/WB install first. I actually will be following this thread because your intentions are close to mine. I've been playing/tuning with my MSPNP2 now for ~2 weeks...and it's finally looking much better than when first starting. You don't want to be prepped to setup everything mechanical - and realize you still have a few weeks of fiddling with the MS and can't figure out or tune the NA portion of the map since you're spooling up all the time. Get it running pretty nice on the stock motor - and then add all the other mechanical components. I don't even have any boost components (another year away), but I can definitely look back now and say that this would have been a PITA had I not installed it first. :D
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The last couple parts I have been waiting for finally came in.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...98db44de08.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e6efacd43d.jpg |
I finally got around to installing my clutch this last weekend, unfortunately made some mistakes during re-assembly and now I am getting some weir trans noises on my test drives such as knocking and excessive bearing noise. On top of that, I installed a used 6 speed I picked up about a year and a half ago from a guy who had, from the looks of it, rolled his NB2. Im not sure how you live through such a thing, but he seemed fine.
He had done a poor job pulling it and I know it had somewhere around 142k on it, but for the price I figured I would give it a go. Now I am pulling the transmission to find out if my noises were a result of a bad transmission or poor installation procedure. To make the second go around easier, I have purchased an engine support bar from Harbor Freight which I will be using with the scissor type transmission lift I had for the first go around. I figure the extra money is well worth it considering I will be tackling it alone this time. The 6 speed trans gear oil after 25 miles of driving. I could used this transmission to make metal flake paint. The magnetic drain plug was pretty fuzzy as well as having a chunk of something seemingly non-metallic stuck amongst the metal shavings. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5eb6961f70.jpg Either way, I have learned:
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That gear oil looks really bad for only 25 miles. It should look brand new after only 25 miles....I hope its not a bad 6 speed you got.
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I was able to get the trans pulled again last night. I need to buy a lottery ticket, because my stupidity when installing the trans last time didn't seem to damage the clutch assembly or throwout bearing what so ever.
I don't have a good way to measure input shaft play, but it seems like substantially (1-2mm at the nose) more that my 5 speed as well as the 6 speed sounding a bit more "gravely" that 5 speed when turning the input shaft by hand. After pulling the front bearing cover off the 6 speed, I found some plastic chunks (broken shifter bushing?) in the countershaft bearing and I can see visible play in the input shaft bearing itself. Im considering gambling the cost of an input shaft bearing and more of my time to try and replace it, although the chances that just that bearing is cooked are probably pretty low at this point. Motivation is high to get a working 6 speed, since I have a 3.6 diff showing up on Friday. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7dad8b60bf.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ecaa5dccb9.jpg |
You should split the case and check the gears for damage. That fluid looked pretty rough for such low miles.
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Originally Posted by andyfloyd
(Post 1533233)
You should split the case and check the gears for damage. That fluid looked pretty rough for such low miles.
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Got my mitts on a set of lock ring pliers and pulled the bell housing off the 6 speed this weekend. It looked surprisingly good inside. There is a little play in the input shaft bearing, but it isn't noisy. I don't really know how tight those bearings are supposed be, and tolerances seem pretty loose in general. I hope I didn't mess anything up disassembling and re-assembling... then disassembling again (I put part of the counter shaft bearing in backwards). Anyways, I'm putting the car back on the road this weekend no matter what, as I now have a deadline for sticking the turbo on the car. The trans I put in depends on if my diff shows any signs of progress making its way to me.
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My diff showed up and I put my 6 speed back in hoping that it could make it another 6 months or so, but after about another 150 miles it started making strange sounds again in the form of an intermittent grinding rattling sounds when the clutch is engaged and the trans was in neutral. I was suspicious that it could be a loose flywheel bolt, but after draining to trans gear oil, Im pretty sure its the transmission, as the oil looked like it had more metal flake than my paint.
Im pretty sad at this point, since I have wasted so much time and money trying to go for the 6 speed 3.6 setup. This just goes to show that buying sup par parts (the trans, not the diff) is a bad idea and simplicity is well.... simple. At this point Im going to swap the 5 speed back in and stick with the 4.1 that came with the car. If anyone local is interested in a 3.6 Torsen, send me a pm. Im not in a hurry to get rid of it, but at the same time, I don't have immediate plans to make use of it. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4c85299bda.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...759be19a5b.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...811a6c74c8.jpg Edit: hit post accidentally |
I probably can't afford the 3.6... But so others know; Where are you located?
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Originally Posted by 90LowNSlo
(Post 1535835)
I probably can't afford the 3.6... But so others know; Where are you located?
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Its been awhile since I have posted. Things have been slow going. The 5 speed is back in the car and everything is good with the drive train except for the infamous decel noise. For now its just a fact of life. I finally got around to the wiring and electronics. Everything is just crimped together at the moment, I will probably go back later at some point and soldier a few items after i get the routing cleaned up.
As for what has actually been done:
All of these installs went fairly smooth until I went to start the car today. The car did start, but ran super rough. I think a good portion of the issue is that the wideband seems to be malfunctioning as it only outputs 14.7. This seems to be a semi common issue and I went ahead and contacted AEM support. Hopefully it is just the sensor. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...17a9f9a314.jpg https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...a5b1504481.jpg https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...6983eeab2e.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...374a266b55.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...593bf8e9b5.jpg https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d1a375497a.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...71da188c62.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...00285b5d97.jpg |
Probably a stupid question, but did you give the wideband enough time to warm up?
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Originally Posted by tenthe
(Post 1541151)
Probably a stupid question, but did you give the wideband enough time to warm up?
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My LC-2 will report a default value, which I set to 14.7, for a minute or so while the internal heater brings the O2 sensor up to temperature. Then it will display the real value.
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For reference, my AEM will display 'heat' on the screen for about 15-20 seconds, then it will display the real value.
I have the 30-0300. Dan |
Originally Posted by Just Dan
(Post 1541310)
For reference, my AEM will display 'heat' on the screen for about 15-20 seconds, then it will display the real value.
I have the 30-0300. Dan Just for reference my AEM UEGO is model: 30-4110. |
I have the older aem uego (fatty) and it sticks at 14.7 while it self calibrates, then slowly drops down to full rich...then spikes to full lean...and then gives the actual reading. This will take ~15-30 seconds. Power/ground was taken from the cigarette lighter. Numbers all look good.
Car will most likely run rough in the beginning with the basemap until all the numbers are set correctly. Just by "playing around" - while the wideband WASN'T working, it felt smoother as I added fuel to the idle region. Not the way to do it - but all it means is that was probably running lean. Stock injectors? |
Originally Posted by atotalpro
(Post 1541315)
Thanks for that info! Mine never says heat. I think I must have a bad sensor. Im going to try and order a new one tomorrow.
Just for reference my AEM UEGO is model: 30-4110. *edit* Mine is very ground dependent, you need a good ground for it to work correctly. it didn't like sharing the ground with anything else. Dan |
Originally Posted by Just Dan
(Post 1541320)
Mine is an X series gauge, that might be the difference. don't discount it until you're sure! I don't have that model available to test.
*edit* Mine is very ground dependent, you need a good ground for it to work correctly. it didn't like sharing the ground with anything else. Dan |
Yeah I sacrificed my cig lighter - just cut the wires... and used those same wires (power/ground) to power the sensor. No sharing. Though I don't have any experience as to what it would do IF it was shared.
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Originally Posted by wherestheboost
(Post 1541333)
Yeah I sacrificed my cig lighter - just cut the wires... and used those same wires (power/ground) to power the sensor. No sharing. Though I don't have any experience as to what it would do IF it was shared.
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I isolated the connections for the wideband last night, to no avail. Probably going to go ahead and order a new sensor today.
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Update. Turns out I was an idiot and bent a pin on the back of the wideband gauge. I only realized this after ordering a VW Jetta sensor, which I guess will make a good backup. Anyways, wideband works great now. I have the car running reasonably well now, although its a bit lean when cruising. I will try to take and upload a data log later.
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I have continued to work with the car trying to get it tuned. It was running alright on the stock injectors, so I decided to go ahead and install the 630cc GT500 injectors. Assembly was pretty simple and the instructions on the Flow Force site made the process easy. The only catch was removing the black plastic ring at the bottom. My approach ended up being to cut 8-12 times vertically around the ring and then pry the sections back until the ring slid off. the ring is not adhered in any way, its just molded around the raised lip you can see in the photos.
Getting the car running on these injectors has been more difficult. I changed the required fuel using the calculator and the dead times to what I thought they should be based on my research, as well as richening up the VE table, since it seemed to be running super lean from the get go with the new injectors. Im not sure these settings are correct as the car is idling pretty poorly when warm and autotune has had mixed results getting the VE table where it needs to be. I also cleaned up the wideband setup by removing the wiring for the boost gauge that was sharing power and ground and re-locating the ground to a bolt metal on metal surface. Calibration of the wideband in megasquirt is still questionable, as it seems to drift a bit. This is probably contributing to my issues with autotune. An FM voodoo kit is sounding pretty good right about now lol. The last major issue im having is in regards to drivability. If I open the throttle quickly at all, it will hesitate badly, almost as if it is having spark or fuel cut, then come back to life. Im getting to the point where Im considering hiring someone to tune the car before I break something. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8ec3643487.jpg https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...57e3e636ba.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3e5e985ad9.jpg https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...bdafba843d.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...72ca222a4a.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7054dcd9cb.png |
Post up msl and msq.
Your REQ might be off. Your AE might be off. Everything might be off xD. But hesitation on high tip in points to AE - but AE can be effected by REQ. That's also assuming your map looks good as well. Lots of questions. If time is of the essence - yeah, get it professionally tuned :D Otherwise... have a seat, it's gonna be a while. |
Originally Posted by wherestheboost
(Post 1544994)
Post up msl and msq.
Your REQ might be off. Your AE might be off. Everything might be off xD. But hesitation on high tip in points to AE - but AE can be effected by REQ. That's also assuming your map looks good as well. Lots of questions. If time is of the essence - yeah, get it professionally tuned :D Otherwise... have a seat, it's gonna be a while. |
msl = log. msq = tune
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Its been a while. Tuning has not been going well and I just haven't had time to mess with the car. Here is my current msq and a log. I would appreciate any input you all would have on how I could improve this tune. The biggest issue at the moment, besides seeming both rich and lean under certain circumstances is that it doesn't respond when i go to blip the throttle.
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That would likely be transient throttle, or whatever the MS software calls it.
Basic concept is that when you blip the throttle the engine sucks in air and there's a small delay before the MAP can show a reading. So the ECU needs to know that when the throttle blips, it needs to just spray some fuel for a moment to cover that small delay before the MAP catches up. Probably not the worlds best explanation, but should cover the bare basics. For MS specific, try reading this: https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...el-enrichment/ |
Originally Posted by hks_kansei
(Post 1549015)
That would likely be transient throttle, or whatever the MS software calls it.
Basic concept is that when you blip the throttle the engine sucks in air and there's a small delay before the MAP can show a reading. So the ECU needs to know that when the throttle blips, it needs to just spray some fuel for a moment to cover that small delay before the MAP catches up. Probably not the worlds best explanation, but should cover the bare basics. For MS specific, try reading this: https://www.diyautotune.com/support/...el-enrichment/ Makes sense. I will definitely look into this. |
Just don't touch it until your map is decently tuned. You'll end up chasing your tail as to where what why who when is giving fuel. Tune the map at "steady" state (as best as possible) - then when that's settled, play with the AE.
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1 Attachment(s)
I think I have made some significant progress tuning the car on the GT500 Injectors, and everything seems to be running well under 4k rpm (think im going to let a professional tuner handle high rpm). My plan is to try to get the turbo parts installed and the car running properly, avoiding boost, and then take it to a tuner and let them handle all of the finer tuning.
I'd appreciate any feedback I can get on my current tune. I've attached the tune and a data log below. Is there a trick to uploading .msl's? I can't get my log to upload. |
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