Not since I got changed it most recently. I should have datalogged saturday because there was a lot of great braking zones. But I was too lazy to do it for a random local. But before I fixed it I was still seeing the same as I was getting before swapping to abs, like 1.1-1.2g.

Well, Laguna trashed another set of brakes:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1410497083
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1410497083

Those are Wilwood "B" compound pads, one step down from the highest temp range they make. They were brand new going into the weekend, the rotors had one track day on them previously. Tapered pad wear, the pads are chunking into pieces, and the rotors are all grooved up. Time for a TSE 11.75" kit, I think.

Especially since, when I took it apart, the Goodwin bracket looked like this:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1410497083


--Ian

Jeepers Ian, you really put the hurt on those things.

Remind me real quick... Goodwin 11" 2 piece rotors and TSE 2" duct kit routex to NB foglivht openings, correct? I'm wondering if you might be a prime candidate for the Singular 2.5" or 3" duct set.

I think he's a prime candidate for using something better than wilwood pads. Looks like the helicoil came out of the bracket.

Oh yeah, 11.75 for sure. But I'm thinking larger ducts might help as well.

How do your hubs/bearings look in the front?

Yep the 11.75 is the way to go. I have the track speed kit. try a higher quality pad too. I run the PFC 01 pads and the PFC rotors. ive had the same rotors for the last 3 years and maybe next year it will be time to change them. a Quick reminder i have 500hp and live next to road atlanta. I can hear them testing for the petit. my brakes get put through hell weekly.

Pads are supposed to look like that, leading edge wears more. Flip them around after each track day and you'll get better life out of them.

i'm going to need to disagree with you there. if your leading edge has wear like that, the caliper is either flexing or you have allot of drag in the system.

Currently the brakes on the car are 11" Wilwood rotors using Goodwin hats and Dynalite calipers, plus the new FM powerlite rears on factory sport rotors. I'm using Wilwood "B" compound up front, "E" in the rear. The pads are chunking, they clearly got massively overheated. I have TSE 2" brake ducting running to the NB factory fog light holes.

I've considered the larger ducting, but I'm really not sure there's room to route the larger hoses on the driver's side. The AC is gone, but there's intercooler hoses, radiator hoses, and power steering hoses all competing for that space.

Visually and audibly the hubs/bearings appear to be OK, I haven't disassembled them.

The helicoil is coming out of the Goodwin bracket, and it's also stripping out the aluminum thread that the helicoil was installed in. This happened once before with a Goodwin bracket, I put it down to not being careful enough with the torque on the bolts, but this is the replacement bracket and I have been religious about using the torque wrench on it. Neither FM nor TSE uses helicoils in their aluminum brackets, simply threading the bolt straight into the aluminum.

I chatted with Savington yesterday, and a TSE 11.75" kit is in the works. Alas, my Koseis won't fit over it, so I'll have to buy another set of 6ULs, what a pity. :)

Andrew recommended DTC-60 pads, so I'll probably try those.

As for the pad taper, I'm confused. That's usually a sign of a flexing caliper, but the Dynalites aren't supposed to be particularly flexible. It's possible I was fading the pads and just putting the extra effort required down to the effects of the 929 1" master cylinder (first time I've run that on track), and that the extra force was flexing the Wilwoods. Alternately, it's also theoretically possible that my Dynalites are more flexible than they're supposed to be -- they are over 10 years old, and the brakes audibly creak if you push hard on the pedal while stopped.

Would flexing in the brackets cause pad taper?

--Ian

I know on larger than 2 piston calipers that the piston diameter tends to get smaller in the direction of rotation to prevent the pads from tapering like this and that 2 piston calipers normally dont because the pads are short and stiff enough for it to not matter.

Also FM claims to us the dynapro over the dynalite because the dynapro is stiffer. I have no opinion, just worth noting.

The Dynalites are inherently flexy. they have a 3 piece design (most race calipers are 2 piece or monoblock) and are the cheapest 4pot caliper that wilwood makes. they were originally designed as a rear caliper for late model circle track cars. when i press down hard on the brake pedal i can hear the calipers flexing, (engine off, no heat, at rest) i'm personally saving my pennies because Stoptech released a competitor to it. it's 4.5X the cost but it's going to be worth it.

Also for our cars that run the dynalights i run a PFC pad. the dynalight being as widely used as it is, Super high end pads for them are crazy cheap. Go to an IMSA race and everyone is using PFC or pagid.they are dead nuts reliable and solve a lot of issues, It's simple to pony up and try out the nicer pads for a difference of 10 bucks.

"4.5x the cost" is not a competitor. That's like calling the S-Class a Camry competitor.

If it bolts directly in and uses the same pads you could all it an upgrade.

Yeah, 4.5x the cost would be about $600 per caliper -- I can buy a lot of pads & rotors for that much!

--Ian

you're absolutely right. but i'm a brake guy. i can never just the usual "yea it's ok and it works." i want the best. the stoptech will be a bridge bolted 2 piece caliper that will be substantially stiffer. as most people know a caliper is only as good as how stiff it is and how light it is.

So why not Porsche monoblocs?

--Ian

BEcause they have the wrong Position diameter, minimum rotor diameter, the pads are engineered for a 13' rotor not 11.75", they are a flexy oem caliper thatwouldcostatonbutdoesn'tmeantheyaregood.

If you want to troll... why don't you ask why i don't use a nascar caliper?
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1410785323

at least those fit under a 15" wheel. FYI one of those calipers cost $5k each.

Not a troll, it was a real question. I know Audi guys used to build brackets to use Boxster calipers under 15s to replace the "UFO" brakes on UrS4s -- word at the time was that they were stiff (due to then-new monobloc construction), had good pad availability, and were relatively inexpensive due to being a mass-production OEM part rather than a small volume race caliper.

--Ian

well my apologies,

When picking out calipers you got to match the calipers piston sizes. too large of a caliper piston front and too small of a rear caliper piston. You'll never be able to get the braking balance without a dual master cylinder setup.

secondly instead of thinking what's better a "Mass produced item or a low volume" think of what it's engineered for. is it engineered to be cheap and go on 100,000 cars, or is it engineered for racing.

Lets compare the porsche caliper to the willwood. the Porsche caliper is engineered to last 100k miles and live with mud, salt, rain. that means it has dust caps, and those like to melt at trac temperatures. when making those calipers they didn't take track driving into any consideration. what it needs to do is be ceap, say brembo, and have allot of pistons.

the willwood is also a Budget built caliper. being the least expensive 4 piston caliper in wilwoods lineup. but it was also built for racing. it has square O-rings to reduce drag, no dust caps, takes a readily available race pad. it's good at what it does. being a cheap race caliper.

With my level of experience i would take the wilwood for our applications, over a porsche caliper. if you see how much pads cost for a boxster compared to the willwoods you would agree with me lol.


My lsx powered car is a constant evolution. although the willwoods work well they aren't the greatest, and i want to upgrade to a 2 piece bridge bolt design.. i have a friend that engineers brake systems for PFC. he had a good quote. "you have a car with more horsepower than a C6R and the same brakes that a JR formula car uses.. your nutz"

This is a bump of an old thread, but I used this guide to help me with wiring my ABS harness and making my ABS retrofit on a 2000 work. Ian was nice enough to send me a spare cluster pin to get my ABS light working.

I got the car running finally last weekend and tested the ABS. Probably need to do a few more bleed cycles, but I'm thrilled and wanted to say thanks for the wiring diagrams.

Yay! Glad it worked!

--Ian

Me too! I was really nervous about bleeding the system, but I think it turned out to be easier than I was expecting.

Note: I only use my Motive power bleeder to apply pressure to the fluid in the MC. I fill up the MC and pressurize it to about 10psi. I do not like putting fluid into the power bleeder tank because I feel that it can add a lot of air to the system and is a mess to clean up (especially if your MC bleeder cap doesn't seal well). I stop often and let the pressure escape from the tank to top off the MC fluid level, and I never let it go much below the full mark on the MC reservoir.

First, I bled the master, then cracked the fittings from the master going into the ABS block while using my pressure bleeder at 10psi. Once the air bubbled out of the inlet fittings to the ABS block, I pumped the pedal a few times, and cracked all of the outlet fittings from the ABS block and let the air bubble out (LF, RF, Rear). Bled the brake lines normally with the pressure bleeder and waited until I got a firm pedal. Then I started the car on jackstands, put it in 1st gear and let the wheels spin. I gave it a little gas and then stomped on the brake pedal as hard as I could. ABS cycled a few times, repeated this about 10x. Shut the car off, checked the MC reservoir, put the pressure bleeder back on and re-bled the brakes. I used a gravity bleed type bottle to catch the brake fluid and try to help keep the bleeders from sucking air back in. Repeat the ABS cycle thing a few more times, re-bleed brakes, abs cycle, re-bleed.

So far the pedal doesn't feel bad, but I haven't driven the car on the street yet since I have to put the rest of my interior back together from other projects. I am hoping for this weekend. I will probably be doing a few more bleed cycles too.

I had expected to go through a ton more fluid. Amazingly, I seem to have used less than 1L total to get where I am now. I had 1L unopened of pentosin, and now I have 4L of ATE. I bought way too much.:party:

isnt the real procedure for bleeding abs in this thread? grounding a wire and holding the brake or something I forget.

The specific procedure isn't in here, but it's something like that. Ground a wire on the diag connector, hold the brake down, turn key on and it'll cycle each channel in turn. Have a helper try to spin the wheel and verify that it turns at the right time. It's really loud and very obvious when it engages in test mode.

I had problems with it because I had a code in my ABS system (caused by a bad connection on one of my wires). If there's a code it won't engage the test mode, you need to clear it first.

The procedures are all in the 99 FSM, for which a PDF is linked in the sticky section.

--Ian

I have the 99-01 FSM. I read the clearing DTC procedure.

And I found that bleed procedure too. Last time I looked, I had an empty hole in my diagnostic box under the hood on my 2000 and no TBS wire. WTF. I'll look again.

if you retrofitted then you probably didnt connect that wire to anything when wiring it up. Just find that wire and ground it. I ended up with like a 6" pigtail when I got my abs retrofit bits and just didnt connect the wires I didnt need/didnt have the harness for.

I hooked mine to TBS by swiping the pin in the diag connector for the cruise control. I melted the cruise at Laguna one day and since I have a trailer for it I never used it anyway, so I just ripped it out.

But yes, a pigtail works fine too.

--Ian

I got the pump out of a 2004 MSM, which should be the same as the 2003 pump that Codrus used. I also got a 6" pigtail with mine.

Fixing it should be easy enough.

Thanks for the help Ian and Leafy.

EDIT: Fixed it. It was the brown wire going to the data link that is the TBS. Cycled the ABS a lot. Drove it. Pedal feels like poop. Need more cycles.

Hi guys,

I just started the ABS swap myself on my 04, today i mounted all the lines and the Pump. I had no issues with any of the lines, I routed the long rear line from the bottom of the car and was able to persuade it to fit. The lines are very flexible, you just have to make sure not to bend them too much.

Thanks for the great post!

Old thread, yes, but relevant to my current interests, still the best thread of its type on the web, and I will update with my own install details once the install is complete.

I'm wiring my ABS at the moment. I have a question about the two grounds coming out of the abs brain connector:

Wire A, black, runs to ground G202 behind left side of dash
Wire D, black/blue, runs to ground G203 behind right kick panel.

Any reason I can't just ground those together at a convenient ground somewhere?

In theory, the ground should go where they are supposed to avoid <insect electronic jargon>. I wired the grounds together as you suggest with no ill effects.

This is an NB1 ABS system?

On my car with the retrofit NB2 unit (combo brain & hydraulic unit) I took all the ground wires and grounded them all to the chassis at the same spot right next to the bracket that holds it.

--Ian

It's an NB2 system, from my original '01 car. I'll just do that then. I couldn't think of a reason electrically why the grounds would be affected if they were grounded separately or tied together, but since Mazda ran them separately I thought I'd ask. Thanks.

My guess would be that one of the grounds is for the power stuff and the other is for the electronics and they're grounded separately in order to reduce the chance of any potential electrical noise from the pump getting into the electronics. Does it actually matter? I have no idea, but I didn't bother to do anything special with them and it doesn't seem to affect the way mine runs.

--Ian

Mine go to the same ground and just to some random threaded hole in the NA chassis near the abs pump.

I was about to start the final pigtail wiring connections today and I realized I have overlooked something.

Pin V, Grn/White wire, goes to Datalink Connector (engine bay), Datalink Connector 2 (lower left of dash, is this the OBD2 connector?), and PCM (behind left side of dash).

I know what the Datalink Connector line does, grounding that is how we cycle the unit.

a) I don't know what the PCM is
b) Does it matter if I don't run that connection?

I was expecting just to ground the green/white wire whenever I wanted to bleed the ABS unit properly, but if I need the PCM connection, I might man-cry. I just re-installed the MS3 and started buttoning up under the dash.

Diagram is in post 3: https://www.miataturbo.net/build-thr...9/#post1025301

PCM is "powertrain control module", it's the ECU. I didn't hook mine up to the ECU (the megasquirt doesn't have a clue what to do with it). I don't know what that connection is for -- perhaps the factory ECU can pull codes from the ABS module and transmit them over OBD?

I don't think it's important.

--Ian

Ah. Ok, great. I'm also megasquirt, so that wire is dead to me as well.

Feels weird I could be on this board for 10 years almost and not associate PCM with ECU.

You do need to connect to the brake switch circuit though at least to do the bleeding produce with the holding the brake pedal while cycling the key I'm not sure if that has a functional effect on the ABS and I dont want to test it.

Yeah, if the input from the brake pedal switch isn't there it'll throw codes.

--Ian

That is done, I have tested 12v through the signal wire when the brake lights come on.

So, help. Do I have a dead pump?

Wired everything up to test it - got nothing at all.

- Power wires are getting voltage.
- Grounds I hooked together and 12 gauge from there to the intake manifold.
- Sensors are connected.

If attaching the connector with the two always hot wires having power, I can hear a couple clicks.

Giving the electronics wire power does nothing.

Grounding either diagnostic wire does nothing.

I have two 12v led's connected to the light wires. Nothing. Have confirmed the LED's actually work.

...anything I'm missing besides this thing is dead?

Did you try the bleed procedure? Have you actually driven it and locked up the wheels?

No, not driven it.

Maybe I didn't jump the diagnostic thing long enough?

But shouldn't at least one of the LED's wired to the brake/ABS wires light up on initial key on? I also tried unplugging one of the sensors to see if that would trigger anything and it did not.

I had this problem with a retrofit. Faulty unit, don't assume your unit is fully functional without very good reason to believe that. It was desperation move on my part, but as I had a spare unit we just plugged in the electrical side (no brake lines), and it did the self-test and the light went out. We swapped the unit over, bled the brakes, and all was good.

I am assuming you are not using an ABS with the separate ABS computer?



I

It's from an 04, I believe (edit: it's the same pump codrus used). NB1 had the separate module + pump, right?

I preemptively ordered a replacement one, as I don't really have time to waste if this one does turn out to be faulty. Which is really annoying as it came off a car with 12k miles.

10AE and JDM NA8s, to my knowledge, may have been others as presumably it would have been the later unit on the 10AE if it had been available. Yes, two pieces, ABS unit in usual place, electronics in footwell.

If you ordered the replacement form the same place as the one you have, hopefully they will refund you if the replacement works. Good luck!

Sadly not the same place. I also ordered this one a year ago. Frustrating.

NB1 has separate pump and electronics, yes.

The behaviour of mine is that if there are no codes, then it grounds both light outputs at power on, turns off one, then turns off the other.

I don't have any photos of my bench test setup, but here's the video closeup of the lights again (IB forum code changes appear to have screwed up the link from before):
--Ian

Okay...got lights.

Jumping either of the brown or green/white wires to ground doesn't seem to trigger anything though. Jumping one of those while holding the brake should get it to do something, right?

See post #53. I think brown is TBS.

--Ian

I guess I'll see if it works when I drive it later this week. The code clearing procedure didn't seem to work as expected. Which meant could never get the pump to cycle.

Ok bringing this thread back from the dead. So on the NB2 abs, once swapped, what are people doing for bias adjustment? Bias adjuster on rear line, bias adjuster on front line?

I just ran it as-is from the donor car. I found that with the 11.75" TSE fronts and FM Wilwood rears it was too rear-biased, so I wound up going back to stock calipers in the rear (on 11" sport rotors), which mostly fixed the issue.

Everything I have read says you never want a bias adjuster on the front lines, only the rear. I am also not sure it's a great idea to try to mix an adjustable prop valve with an ABS that was calibrated for a different bias.

--Ian

Yea I was thinking on the front didn't make sense, it would be better to change pad compound, but I read it here somewhere and thought I would check. I think most are running a proportioning valve even with ABS though.

Front: all Sport brakes
rear: sport calipers, 251 mm discs and carrier
1" master
Brake prop valve on the rear line before the ABS block
I might go back to all-sport rear brakes because I feel like I could use a little more rear brake in light braking, and the ABS will take care of eycessive brake force

Definitely dont put the prop valve on the front brake lines.

I'm 80% through with the NB2 (Bosch) ABS swap on my NB1. I've been piecing this together over the last 6 months. I can't find a NB2 with ABS in a central Ohio junkyard, and the nearest places are >4 hours round trip. I just need the rear knuckles and axles and finish the wiring.
That also meant I had to make all my own lines, which was quite laborious. I have a Wilwood 1" master + adjustable prop valve, plus I wanted to add an AIM brake pressure sensor to the front circuit, so it wouldn't have been a complete bolt-in had I gotten all the ABS lines. It still needs some line clamps and final strain relieving. I ended up putting a union for the rear brake line on the firewall. This required dropping the line to flare it, but was way quicker than making a new one. I usually don't like unnecessarily adding more fitting, but was a significant time savings for the risk of 2 additional joints.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...c8ea4fed0e.jpg

Having many nightmares about how long it would take to remake/reflare a bunch of leaking lines with the shitty wingnut flaring tool, I broke down and bought a Jegs Pro flaring tool (which seems to be the same as the Eastwood tool). What a beauty! It requires a feel to not under/over flare, but after that it's just a pleasure. No leaks after bleeding! I also used NiCopp line, which is soft enough you can bend by hand around sockets to get really tight bends you can't do with a regular tubing bender tool. It does work harden extremely quick, so if you dick something up it's much much harder to straighten it back out. I typically would just throw the line out and remake it if I bent it in the wrong direction. Note the direction of the Subaru ABS connector.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...55367be7d4.jpg



I was having trouble finding the ABS pump connector. I wasn't really sure what harness it was apart of, and no junk yards wanted to just hack it off for me. You can still find the connector on the Bosch website, but good luck purchasing it individually. There are a bunch of vehicles that use the Bosch 3 channel ABS pump, but they don't all have the same keys. For example, I found the 1st gen Honda Pilot use a Bosch pump with different keyways. I ended up buying a connector w/ pigtail for a 2002 Subaru Legacy. So any early 2000's Legacy, Baja, Outback will work. The only issue is the wire bundle exits the connector points at the engine instead of the fender.
This is what it should look like:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f130245551.png

Has anyone had an issue with the ABS light not coming on at all? I'm starting to suspect a bad pump. I've installed a NB2 pump from a junkyard (see above post), and finally got around to sorting out the wiring (which is all custom):
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d53fe1288a.jpg

The brake warning light turns on with IG and it goes out after 1-2 seconds and I can hear the solenoids click, but the ABS warning light never turns on. I've verified the wiring is correct, because both lights turn on when I unplug the connector from the pump. I've verified I'm getting +12v at both pins coming from the engine bay fuse box. Both grounds are connected to the ABS pump bracket.
I've tried grounding the TBN pin and nothing happens when I IG on. Also tried pressing the brake and turning IG on(with TBN grounded) and it didn't do any diagnostic mode. And I've disconnected the wheel speed sensors and still no light.

The car is still on jack stands, so I haven't actually confirmed that it doesn't work, but I'm not filled with confidence. I'm gonna source another NB2 pump unless someone has anything I'm overlooking.

Those units are not failureproof. I chased a conversion that wouldn't clear the check light after ignition on, for months - so much time, money, frustration. Put oscilloscopes on it, replaced sensors, rewired, you name it. Then in desperation plugged in another unit and all worked as per script. If it checks out with basic checks, go straight to another unit is my advice now. All you need to do is plug the electronics connector in, doesn't need to to plumbed into the hydraulics if all you are doing is trying to get that warning light to go out on startup.