|
Demonstrations/Protests in Turkey
Hakan - Can you give us your impression, as a godless commie living in Turkey, of what's going on with the riots in Istanbul?
What are some specific reasons they are protesting and now rioting? I see some coverage with vague remarks about the "totalitarian" and "authoritarian" rule of Erdogan, but no detail. I thought I heard one of the more recent big catalysts involved Taksim Square. Can you tell us more about that? |
Erdogan wrecking Turkey's image as model democracy, critics say - latimes.com
That seems like a pretty good explanation: lots of resentment of the reduction in the separation of church and state and restrictions over some secular freedoms (e.g. sale of alcohol?). |
It's so hard to know what's going on because the media in Turkey is all being blocked/buried.
I've been seeing a lot on how main media has been covering up the riots and everything going on there. Correct me if I'm wrong though. All the pictures I've seen on it are intense. |
*
|
Not having cable tv I was ignorant of this until some facebook post yesterday. Been trying to find out what is going down. Seems it boils down to some standing up against their rights being taken away? I love that some have their own gas masks.
|
Paraphrasing John Kerry, "Whom amongst us does not own gas masks?"
|
|
Sorry guys, I was in Taksim all day. Just came home.
The whole thing started out with just a handful of protesters trying to protect a small park in downtown Istanbul That park was slated for demolition, and they were going to build a shopping mall there. "butchering the green" has become the norm here of late, and that park was the last straw. Police literally attacked the protesters, who were - really - just peacefully sitting in the park. That was the spark that started the movement. More than a couple MILLION people are involved now. Police shot tens of thousands gas canisters into peaceful protesters. There are casualties. Cops ran out of tear gas (they were using ambulances to transport canisters) and switched to some unknown compound. There was a virtual media blackout during the first few days of the protests. Hundreds of thousands of people are in the streets round the clock, all of the mainstream TV stations were airing cooking shows or penguin documentaries. PM Erdogan promptly left the country "for an official visit" to Morocco. King of Morocco declined to meet him, and Tunisian officials flatly refused to attend a dinner, citing what's happening in Turkey. Taksim Square (the most prominent and significant public gathering place in all of Turkey was successfully occupied very early (day two IIRC), and that's when the MP appeared on TV with threats. He claimed they were having trouble keeping his voting block, reportedly in the millions, contained. He said they were home for the time being, and not getting out in the streets! That is provocation, pure and simple. he is threatening half of the country, using the other half. Police are given orders to take no prisoners, to show no mercy. They have used about 12 million dollar's worth of tear gas so far. Police is aiming at people's faces when they shoot those tear canisters. Too many people are seriously wounded. Ungodly concentrations of tear gas in the streets have dissolved many contact lenses, people have gone blind because of that - all documented. The PM has labeled the demonstrators "a handful of looters". (Capulcu) This led to a new term in English, Chapuling! Countless people have changed their FB and Twitter user names, putting Capulcu in front of their name. Even the CEO of a major bank stepped down in to the street and proclaimed to be a Capulcu... Media blackout created a massive backlash.. About 35000 credit cards (from Garanti Bank, whose owner is the boss of one of the major media outlets on Turkey) were cancelled in one day. People closed their accounts. There were national cafe chains who refused to help protesters on the first two day, and there is a widespread boycott going on as we speak.. Those cafes are virtually deserted all over the country. The PM is scheduled to return this evening. He seems out of touch with what's going on, and acts in total denial. Meanwhile, Taksim is beautiful. Hundreds of thousands of people are there round the clock, they have free open buffets, free shopping centers, free health care, free libraries, free concerts all over the place, all built overnight with volunteers. Moms, dads, everyone is taking food and supplies there, old ladies are feeding the protesters... Meanwhile, there are and have been for at least a week, major demonstrations all over the country in support of Taksim. Police is brutal in those places, either attacking peaceful citizens, or standing by and allowing pro government militants mount attacks. Today is day number 10. No one could have foreseen this 15 days ago. No one can tell what will happen in another days. Nothing like this ever happened in Turkey before. largest demonstrations in Turkey lasted maybe a day so far, and this Government somehow managed to unite millions from all walks of life. Even fans of rival soccer teams have come together and formed Istanbul United. Just that says a lot about what's happening over here. |
|
I hope you stay safe, and I hope you fight for your liberty, and I hope you have wisdom when you have to choose between safety and liberty.
|
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau
(Post 1019233)
I hope you stay safe, and I hope you fight for your liberty, and I hope you have wisdom when you have to choose between safety and liberty.
These are interesting times to say the least. Tomorrow will be day 11. We'll see what comes our way. |
Thanks for your input, Hakan. I second Mark's remarks about staying safe (and staying out of jail) while working to maintain or reclaim your collective freedoms.
Can you speak to some of the specifics of the resentments of the protesters? I have read about restrictions on alcohol sales. What are those restrictions? I have also read about the park - it seems Erdogan unilaterally decided to move forward with a commercial development project after local groups initially rejected it. I have also read that the developer is somehow related to Erdogan and that smells of a type of corruption (crony capitalism). I am going to assume you are biased in support of the protesters and in opposition to Erdogan and the religious right. As objectively as you can, can you speak to the riots? In New York City, the OWS crowd gathered some initial legitimacy because they were largely peaceful (to outsiders) and largely focused on protest. In Oakland, California, they immediately lost legitimacy as they seemed bent on chaos, anarchy, and an excuse to throw molotov cocktails and break shit. __________________________________________________ ________________ The rest of this is my only-semi-educated musings, being largely ignorant of the history and current situation in Turkey. It's interesting the parrallels and sharp distinctions between the Occupy Wall Street movement (which started out with peaceful protests in a park) and the Turkish movement. The OWS crowd had many and varied issues but shared a collective disgruntlement that had simmered for a long time before coming to a low boil. Most of their issues were rooted in economics with political spillovers. That is, a primary complaint was about disparity in wealth distribution (e.g. resentment of the 1% vs the 99%) and a stagnating middle class. Included in this were issues with "crony capitalism" (e.g. the big bank bailouts). It seems the ResIstanbul movement is much more rooted in politics and religion. Turkey has been one of the fastest growing economies in the world under Erdogan and has added more jobs than any of its neighbors. However, from what I can understand, it seems there is a large split in Turkey among the "godless commies" and the Islamic traditionalists. Politically, Turkey has been among the most secular nations in that near Asia area as I understand it, but Erdogan has allegedly been letting more and more Islam creep in to the government. What is really interesting to me at this point is the difference in reactions to how the initial protesters were treated. Occupy Wall Street was most left alone to their own devices and eventually fizzled out. The Taksim Square protesters were immediately faced with strong resistance and that only fanned the flames and caused it to spread. |
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack
(Post 1019349)
What is really interesting to me at this point is the difference in reactions to how the initial protesters were treated. Occupy Wall Street was most left alone to their own devices and eventually fizzled out. The Taksim Square protesters were immediately faced with strong resistance and that only fanned the flames and caused it to spread.
|
Before I post on the details of what's going on in Turkey I would like to respectfully ask the OP or the mods to please change the thread title to "Demonstrations/Protests in Turkey".
This is not a riot. No one is rioting. There is no violence by the people. Peaceful protesters are exercising their rights to voice their concerns while being subjected to tear gas and water cannons. No one is fighting back. The only allowed action on the part of the protesters is throwing back gas canisters that land nearby. Violence, littering, property damaging is strictly discouraged. People carry musical instruments, they are "armed" with gas masks and goggles. The most dangerous thing I have personally witnessed in the crowds is a hot cup of tea some people are drinking while taking a rest. There is graffiti all over the place, of course. But, that's not violence. People (protesters) are constantly accused of forcing "excessive intellect" over the law enforcement. Someone wrote "police brother, you bring tears in my eyes" on the pavement for instance. Another says, "If we were afraid of gas we would never fart"... So, this is not a riot. |
As for specific resentments of the protesters...
I believe a disclaimer is in order here: No one owns this protest so far. No one has been/is organizing the people in the streets, no one has put out any sort of a call for the people to get out and assemble someplace. People took to the streets and rushed to Taksim Square instinctively once law enforcement started mounting violent assaults on peaceful protesters and truly innocent bystanders. Taksim is tantamount to Times Square; there are hundreds of thousands of people there at any given time. Police were shooting gas into city buses, buildings, down subway stairs, on older people, tourists, I mean literally everyone on that day. The news quickly spread and people rushed there in large numbers. People who would never think about getting together under normal conditions formed an instant alliance. Soccer rivalry among the three prominent Istanbul clubs (Fenerfahce - FB, Galatasaray - GS, and Besiktas - BJK) is legendary. Fans hate each other, away games are always violent, and there is a very well understood animosity among these clubs. But, on that day, when police forcibly detained 50 Fenerbahce fans, 400 GS fans rushed over and saved them from the police. After that "Carsi", the incredibly vocal fan base of BJK stepped in. within an hour, they formed an alliance, and called it "Istanbul United". Now they are acting as one. This is just one example. Turkish Communist Party, labor Unions, Greens, Separatist Groups, teachers, musicians, athletes, housewives, Students, professors, regular folks, gays, doctors, wealthy and the poor have all come together. Understandably, there is a plethora of demands. I will try and do my best to convey a common thread, while doing my best to not turn into a mouthpiece for any specific group/interest. First order of business is the PM's resignation. This is unanimous. people seem to be tired of the PM's devil may care attitude. Everyone resents his dictatorial air. His tone has always been "whatever I say goes". People do not appreciate his defiant attitude, they want to be heard, and have a say in things. There is also a growing concern over demolishing the "green" in Turkey to make room for development projects by special interest groups with close ties to the current government. Turkey - the Republic - is a young nation. Ottoman Empire was officially abolished in 1923, and the Turkish Republic was established in its stead. This is easier said than done. Some still yearn for the empire days, and refuse to recognize what has been done so far in the name of modernizing the country. So, today's Turkey is a very strange mix of the old and the new. Words fail to describe it, you need to see it to truly understand what life is like around here. Anyway, back to demands... Women are bothered with the PM's attitude, as well. He keeps telling women they should have at least three children, for instance. Or, they publicize private information on women who have an abortion. Same goes for birth control in certain cases. There is also a deep wedge being driven into the society. The PM's voting block dresses and acts a certain way. they regard the rest of the country as godless drunks, engaging in debauchery at every chance. That is a major cause for resentment. Anyone with ties to the current administration has become really rich over the past ten years. Corruption, government incentives, etc are hot issues. AKP (PM's political party) came out with 50 per cent of the vote in the past couple of general elections. It is common knowledge that millions of rural residents were given coal, firewood, rice and pasta (makarna - happens to be a buzzword over here) in exchange for a promise for votes. People were made to swear on the Koran that they would vote for him in many cases. So, it is this blatant "buying of the uninformed's vote" that angers the remaining 50% of Turkey. AKP is well organized, well funded, and they know how to play the religion card to secure votes. Many were outraged over the "hanging chad" incident in Florida. The "makarna" issue dwarfs that by comparison. Since Turkey is a young nation, the fact that many of the essential and major enterprises such as oil refineries, power plants, railways, the highway system, universities, etc were initiated and owned by the state can easily be understood. There was no private capital in the country to start up an economy on the heels of a major independence war back in those days. Pretty much all of those enterprises were sold at a bargain to multinational companies over the past decade and a half. Revenues from such sales bring forth a temporary feeling of welfare and relief to the economy, but the big picture could be far from optimistic. Damn.. I am tired of typing here. I'll do my best to answer/respond to questions and concerns to the best of my abilities, but please understand that I am just an ordinary guy, observing and taking in whatever I can from my end. Also, please keep in mind that English is not my first language. Please (and this is a big please) remind me if I am not able to make myself clear, or use language that may lead to any sort of a misunderstanding. Also, I personally feel like a thank you is in order to everyone who take an interest in what's happening in a non-oil producing country on the far side of the planet, and take the time to read or post their thoughts. |
Thank you for taking the time to type that. You are putting your thoughts down very clearly and in easy to read/understand format.
Once again, thanks. |
Originally Posted by Godless Commie
(Post 1019390)
Before I post on the details of what's going on in Turkey I would like to respectfully ask the OP or the mods to please change the thread title to "Demonstrations/Protests in Turkey".
|
No, I'd like to thank YOU for telling us about it. Our media today is so fucked up it's not even worth listening to what they have to say about it, so I am really grateful that I get a first-hand account of what is going on over there.
Stay safe Hakan. |
5 Attachment(s)
Thank you, Hakan, for sharing your impressions with us. We will ask for clarification, but your English and grammar are better than 75% of new members that were born in the USA. ;)
I was initially quick to brush off the protests as exactly the same as a bunch of the "Occupy" types but I always try to keep an open mind. Once I did a bit more research, there are some big differences that I wanted to learn more about. For example, my understanding is that the Turks do not have the same level of freedom of speech that Americans have - that Erdogan has prosecuted some for conspiracy charges and that they are trying to widen those crimes to broader political dissent. [Edit: On the flip side, unlike in the USA, military coups and executions have been a very real part of recent Turkish history prior to Erdogan's election.] I still want to know how alcohol sales have been restricted. This could be the rallying cry that all free people can truly rally behind! :friday: (Just a bit of humor in a serious thread) Also, thank you, Lars, for fixing the thread title. However, forgive me if I am skeptical that there has been no rioting and no property damage caused by the protesters. I can believe it's possible, but I am skeptical. I can more easily believe that it's been very limited (like New York City) vs widespread (like Oakland, California). https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370625385 CNN Turk on the left; CNN USA(?) on the right: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370625385 This looks like rioting to me: https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370625385 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370625385 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370625385 With national media ignoring or being blacked out, it's possible the minimal rioting is just not on your (admittedly sympathetic) radar. |
2 Attachment(s)
I wish you were here to witness what's happening.
Yes, any pic with fire contains undertones of a riot.. What many people do not realize is the fact that incendiary gas canisters shot from police panzers have started 99.9% of the fires. People were frantically building barricades to save themselves from the panzers (They are called TOMA here (Social Incident Intervention Vehicle), they are huge armored vehicles with extraordinary water cannons and various ports for shooting tear gas canisters. There were a few police cars that were abandoned in Taksim square. People destroyed them. Some say they were left there on purpose as bait, to provide material for the government friendly media. All that happened during the first few hours. People built barricades with whatever they could get their hands on. The most commonly available material was pavement bricks on the sidewalks. I took a couple pics: The white sign on the second pic says "to resistance" https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370626582 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370626582 And, Jack, you are correct in thinking/assuming that Turks do not enjoy the same level of freedom speech as US citizens. 38 people were detained in Izmir (an Aegean metropolis) for incendiary tweets. Some of the messages were "Water cannons are coming our way", for example. They let go 37 of those people after 36 hours. But, they managed to send a message to people tweeting about the incident. |
From everything I have read in this thread and seen elsewhere, I am thoroughly impressed with the self discipline of the Turkish protestors. I have seen hundreds of photographs of the medical care, food, and clothing that has been provided by the people to each other for free. I have seen how clean the protestors have been keeping the areas in which they occupy (minus the graffiti). I also saw multiple pictures of protestors carrying an injured police officer to safety. I have doubts that this kind of discipline could be attained in the U.S. in the same situation. I have a lot of respect for the Turkish people and I truly hope they stay strong and force a change in their country for the better.
|
This sums it up - sorta:
25 Examples Of The Best Street Humour From Istanbul, Gezi Park (#occupygezi) Protests |
1 Attachment(s)
|
1 Attachment(s)
Restored bus stop in Taksim (courtesy of protesters)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1370633361 |
Please take a moment to watch this...
I would strongly suggest pausing the video to check out individual frames. PROTESTS IN TURKEY - POLICE BRUTALITY - CNN iReport |
I'm a little stunned... I've seen more of the news in the last week than I have in months, and haven't seen any mention of this stuff at all...
|
Thank you Hakan for your very informative posts..
Some good reading here as well: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/06/op...anted=all&_r=0 and more examples of humor: BBC News - Will Istanbul's protesters have the last laugh? |
Hakan, I've been following your posts and links and passing them on to others through email. I am concerned for your safety and the well-being of your country. Turkey has been a rare bastion of elected secular government in a region where religious autocracies are the norm. Turkey has also been a strong regional ally of the U.S. for many years and has always been portrayed as a country that embraces modernism and the separation of personal religious thought from government policy.
Our thoughts are with you, and dare I say it... so are my prayers. Be safe. |
Coverage on Vice: Istanbul Rising | VICE United States
|
|
Sorry I haven't posted in a while...
But, NEWSFLASH Mothers gather in Taksim Square, form a human chain around the protesters. Cops are helpless. |
How many days has this been officially going on now? Has the PM even started to deal with the problems or is he still taking the hard line and calling the millions of protesters terrorists or a nuisance?
|
This is crazyness. Sucks the media/social media has kinda died down in regards to this. I'm sure the whole NSA thing kinda took some wind away from the US attention of it.
|
1 Attachment(s)
|
2 Attachment(s)
|
Motherfuckers are attacking civilians all over..
Women, children, the elderly, EU parliament members, everyone is under attack. They are gassing hotels that are converted into infirmaries. Cocksuckers drove a water cannon into a hospital and shot the emergency room. They have added a solvent in the water cannons, causes MASSIVE burns. Military police has joined the riot police, they are attacking everywhere. We were on the freeway, trying to march into Taksim, we got tear gassed big time. That shit is like bunt antifreeze, it consumes you, and you want to die when it hits you. I made it out and made my way back home. No one is sleeping in Turkey tonight. This is bad, I really don't know how it can get worse. I smell tear gas in my own breath every time I exhale. |
Internet connection is very hit and miss over here now.
|
Originally Posted by Godless Commie
(Post 1022110)
They have added a solvent in the water cannons, causes MASSIVE burns.
Interesting...I wonder what our administration would say about that after having just quietly declared war on Syria for the same... |
Thanks for all the updates Hakan. Got an extra room here. I've been OC'd and tazed + ect while in the service. I can try to relate, but probably not as close to as horrible as I'd like to think it is.
|
Fuuuuuck....
|
This thread is almost the only sign of what's happening over here in Australia. The whole western world will go through this in my lifetime, I only hope we here will be a strong as your people.
Much respect to all of you, godspeed. Dann |
Stay safe, Hakan.
BBC News - Turkish government says it may use army to end protests The Turkish government has said it could use the army to end nearly three weeks of unrest by protesters in Istanbul and other cities. BBC Q&A: BBC News - Q&A: Protests in TurkeyThe government would use "all its powers" and the armed forces if necessary, Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said on state-run television. [...] Trade unions have called a strike to protest against the police crackdown on demonstrators which has seen some 500 people arrested. Medical officials estimate that 5,000 people have been injured and at least four killed in the unrest. Counter-points from Erdogan supporters: BBC News - Turkish voices back Erdogan against protests |
I foresee a lot more violence in Turkey. The excessive brutality of the govt. seems to be making it worse and turning a lot more people against Erdogan that would normally be neutral.
|
Some dingdong among the paid crowds - forced to attend the PM's rally on Sunday proudly proclaimed she's Recep Tayyip Erdogan's dingleberry, on live TV!
Goes to show how political, bright, astute and wise sheeple can be. (I'm safe, and doing well, btw) |
4 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Godless Commie
(Post 1022531)
(I'm safe, and doing well, btw)
You are our light to what is going on inside Turkey. This is an historic time, so take a few pictures. I love individual liberty and detest government tyranny. And I generally like to support the underdog being faced with overwhelming odds. We are with you in spirit. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371554728 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371554728 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371554728 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371554728 |
I am interested to see if the PM is stupid enough to try and use the military to stomp out the protestors. Due to the fact that much of the military is still secular and everyone has to serve a small stint in the military at some point I have a feeling it would lead to split forces and a possible civil war. This could get really ugly really fast if military force is used.
|
I could see the PM kicking out of native Turks from the country, importing muslims in their stead and giving them all access to healthcare, a living wage without a job, and a newly vacant house.
|
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1022691)
I could see the PM kicking out of native Turks from the country, importing muslims in their stead and giving them all access to healthcare, a living wage without a job, and a newly vacant house.
Meanwhile, my perception of the protestors is that they are an interesting hybrid of secular leftists who want to resist the (corrupt) commercialization of public spaces and who feel a resentment toward their perception of a breakdown in the separation of church and state. In simpler terms, imagine if G.W. Bush was as religious and mean as MSNBC thought he was and the Occupy Wall Street gang was cleaner and gainfully employed. Quote from one of the protestors in Istanbul: We are absolutely tired of shopping malls and turning of green areas and historic monuments into temples of commercialism. There's been a continuous attack on our lifestyle, our beliefs and freedoms and we are now reaching a turning point.
Originally Posted by Ryan_G
(Post 1022683)
I am interested to see if the PM is stupid enough to try and use the military to stomp out the protestors. Due to the fact that much of the military is still secular and everyone has to serve a small stint in the military at some point I have a feeling it would lead to split forces and a possible civil war. This could get really ugly really fast if military force is used.
I understand Hakan's view that the most recent elections, in which Erdogan's party won, were suspect. That said, he seems to still have the support of a significant portion of the population and many may not sympathize with the protestors as much as you might think. |
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack
(Post 1022707)
I understand Hakan's view that the most recent elections, in which Erdogan's party won, were suspect. That said, he seems to still have the support of a significant portion of the population and many may not sympathize with the protestors as much as you might think.
|
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack
(Post 1022707)
I don't think you understand the situation at all.
|
godless commie,
I've been reading this thread with interest and I just read a report on one of the Spanish newspapers that concerned me: Erdogan planea restringir las redes sociales para evitar provocaciones - ABC.es I'm going to translate the basics: Erdogan is considering the possibility of restricting the use of social media (twitter and facebook). It sure doesn't say much about his concept of democracy. Sorry man. Keep safe. |
He's doing it because the regular news outlet wont report and all my turk friends are posting on facebook and alike to pass the news back to Turkey so they know what is actually going on.
|
About 20,000 people gathered peacefully to leave carnations in Taksim square in memory of those who died during the "resistance movement" since May 31.
Police responded with a brutal attack, initiated by water cannons (laced with chemicals), tear gas grenades, and clubbed people senseless. The PM, meanwhile keeps fanning the flames. At a rally today, he said he wants the Gezi Park cleared, so "his citizens" can go and enjoy the place. People all agree his days are numbered. "Everyday I am Chapuling" https://www.google.com/search?safe=o...w=1920&bih=993 |
I come from a long family history of civil disobedience. The Spanish civil war, the communist revolution in Cuba... My ancestors bravely packed up and ran away from each one.
Watching episodes like this unfold make me sort of vaguely uneasy with a hint of familial nostalgia... As though I feel I ought to be bravely packing up and running away from it. And yet I have never found myself in such a position. It seems that in the US, our various regional and federal governments are literally too big (and too smart) to fail. |
|
1 Attachment(s)
Turkish riot police break up protest rallies - Europe - Al Jazeera English
In the capital Ankara, riot police fired water cannon and tear gas to disperse hundreds of protesters, some of them shouting slogans against Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and at one location they built barricades to block a main street, according to witnesses. In Istanbul, Turkey's biggest city, demonstrators threw carnations at a phalanx of officers carrying shields who slowly advanced towards them, flanked by water cannon, to clear Taksim Square. "Police, don't betray your people!" activists shouted after they had been scattered into streets leading to the public square. |
Hobbyist drone footage:
http://mashable.com/2013/06/19/drone-journalism-turkey/ George Orwell had it backwards. Today the people have more cameras than the gov't, and soon, more drones! |
Please take the time to look through this:
40 Tragic Pictures From Turkey As Clashes Erupt After Death Of 15-Year-Old Berkin Elvan |
Oh wow!
|
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:39 PM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands