Gun Rights: Should you be allowed to own an RPG?
08-08-2012, 09:37 AM
#61
This is my favorite story about the warrior/shepherd mentality.
MYREPUBLICA.com - News in Nepal: Fast, Full & Factual
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08-08-2012, 09:52 AM
#62
The analogy that I keep coming back to is: you stick a bunch of kids in a room with a box of magic markers. You tell them that they can play with the markers but that they are not allowed to write on the walls. Inevitably, some kid is going to write on the wall. How long will you allow this to go on until you take back all of the markers? Or, can you find another method to ensure that the wall doesn’t get written-on when the kids have control of the markers?
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08-08-2012, 09:56 AM
#63
The analogy that I keep coming back to is: you stick a bunch of kids in a room with a box of magic markers. You tell them that they can play with the markers but that they are not allowed to write on the walls. Inevitably, some kid is going to write on the wall. How long will you allow this to go on until you take back all of the markers? Or, can you find another method to ensure that the wall doesn’t get written-on when the kids have control of the markers?
The other reason your analogy is stupid is because the kid is writing on the wall not other children. If one kid decided to write on someone else I can sure as hell guarantee that others would retaliate. Now when do you think said kid is most likely to write on another child (assuming that being written on himself would not be welcomed so as to compare to the general feeling people have of being fired upon), when he is the only one who has a marker or when every child in the room has a marker?
You are also assuming that by "banning" guns you are actually completely restricting access to guns. All that really ends up happening is those who abide by the law no longer have access to firearms while criminals who purchase their weapons illegally already have continued access through the same channels they already were using anyway. Not to mention if one kid did write on the wall or another child I would only take away his marker, not everyone's markers.
You are correct in stating that most attackers do utilize guns because they are easily obtained and can be operated with little training or knowledge. They are easy but not necessarily the most effective option. You are falsely assigning the choice of weapon with the cause of the event. If you remember, the Colorado shooter also rigged his apartment with large amounts of explosives that were only rendered ineffective because they were already aware of them when they got there. If guns were outlawed do you really think someone who had thoughts of mass murder would not resort to simple devices like molotov cocktails, knives, or nail bombs. All of which can be made by a 5th grader with supplies purchased at a hardware or grocery store?
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08-08-2012, 10:11 AM
#65
I feel it is a common misconception that the death penalty is a deterant for crime. The kinds of crimes that warrant the death penalty are either committed by those who do not fear death or live with the threat of death from their enemies at all times (i.e. drug lords or war criminals). Those that would normally be deterred by death but commit these crimes anyway are in a state of mind during the event in which the threat of the death penalty is the last thing they are thinking about.
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08-08-2012, 10:42 AM
#66
You are quick to overreact to my statements. I am not interested in arguing about gun control, because frankly, it appears that I’m on your side. I truly want to hear reasonable, sound solutions to the problem – specifically regarding mass shootings using legally attained assault weapons and tactical handguns. Both from the left and the right.
Admittedly, my analogy is simple and can be easily picked apart (as you have graciously proven). My point is that society as a whole can not be trusted. So how do you keep the walls clean?
Olderguy – thanks for reading my post and answering accordingly. I’m sure that everyone is in favor of a stricter and more consistent justice system. While I don’t think it will stop the existence of lunatics, I would hope that it has a long-term overall effect on improving societal behavior and may reduce the creation of troubled minds.
Brain – perfect answer….very effective. (sarcasm)
Admittedly, my analogy is simple and can be easily picked apart (as you have graciously proven). My point is that society as a whole can not be trusted. So how do you keep the walls clean?
Olderguy – thanks for reading my post and answering accordingly. I’m sure that everyone is in favor of a stricter and more consistent justice system. While I don’t think it will stop the existence of lunatics, I would hope that it has a long-term overall effect on improving societal behavior and may reduce the creation of troubled minds.
Brain – perfect answer….very effective. (sarcasm)
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08-08-2012, 10:46 AM
#67
And of course some shooters choose assault weapons and semi-automatics for mass-killings. They are readily available to all types of people. It's pretty obvious why they are an excellent platform for the taking of life.
However, you are a fool if you think that banning assault weapons will have any effect on gun crime, mass shootings, or criminal activity in general. And you are equally more of a fool if you think that the complete banning of all firearms in the US (as if the libs could wave a magic wand and they'd all disappear) would have any positive effect on crime or mass murder. Just ask England, Germany, Australia, etc.
The analogy that I keep coming back to is: you stick a bunch of kids in a room with a box of magic markers. You tell them that they can play with the markers but that they are not allowed to write on the walls. Inevitably, some kid is going to write on the wall. How long will you allow this to go on until you take back all of the markers? Or, can you find another method to ensure that the wall doesn’t get written-on when the kids have control of the markers?
You don't think you've fallen into their trap, and you think you are truly pro-2A, but when you get down to it, you want to take my guns. Where will you draw the line when the anti-weenies get strong enough to control the government into coming after your SUV, or your second child, or your cigarettes, or your swimming pool, or... they will come and take whatever you let them. Ps... they will always come with a real good reason why you "don't need that". Don't let them.
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08-08-2012, 11:26 AM
#69
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let us.
and then there's this:
and an interesting read: http://www.saf.org/journal/14/GunCon...ndtheWorld.htm
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08-08-2012, 11:35 AM
#70
There's a question I'd like to ask rhetorically... let's say there had been a SEAL, Green Beret, SWAT member, or regular old Marine... basically anybody in the audience who some serious quick reaction training and the mental discipline to establish a tactical solution. Do you think a SEAL would let the fact that he wasn't carrying stop him from trying to take down an active shooter... and succeeding?
Anybody in my list above would not have been one of the scared-to-death panicking-running-for-their-lives-completely-unable-to-defend-themselves citizens getting gunned down as they tried to run out the door. If anybody in that list had been armed, I guarantee you the incident would have gone much differently.
People who have never considered how they will react to a crisis... any crisis, will almost always do what everybody around them is doing. Men will run as fast as they can, and women will either freeze, hide, or run screaming.
I have a metric ***-ton of Anti-Terrorism training. I've been to 2 schools and been credentialed in addition to yearly refreshers.. Having done my tour working the flight-deck, my mass-casualty scenario training is also pretty extensive, and while I haven't ever been put to the test like those people in the theater, I've had those moments where I felt like running, but the training not only told me to stay put, but gave me the ability to process that staying put was not only safest for me, but put me in a position to be safe for others. The psychology of "mass-panic" is well-documented. What is equally well documented is the difference military (or military-style) training makes during an event like that.
As Hustler intoned, simply being able to hit a paper target at a range does not constitute the type of "firearms training" that allows a person to react offensively during a mass-shooting. You also need the mental and tactical discipline not to become a victim before you can engage the shooter.
Anybody in my list above would not have been one of the scared-to-death panicking-running-for-their-lives-completely-unable-to-defend-themselves citizens getting gunned down as they tried to run out the door. If anybody in that list had been armed, I guarantee you the incident would have gone much differently.
People who have never considered how they will react to a crisis... any crisis, will almost always do what everybody around them is doing. Men will run as fast as they can, and women will either freeze, hide, or run screaming.
I have a metric ***-ton of Anti-Terrorism training. I've been to 2 schools and been credentialed in addition to yearly refreshers.. Having done my tour working the flight-deck, my mass-casualty scenario training is also pretty extensive, and while I haven't ever been put to the test like those people in the theater, I've had those moments where I felt like running, but the training not only told me to stay put, but gave me the ability to process that staying put was not only safest for me, but put me in a position to be safe for others. The psychology of "mass-panic" is well-documented. What is equally well documented is the difference military (or military-style) training makes during an event like that.
As Hustler intoned, simply being able to hit a paper target at a range does not constitute the type of "firearms training" that allows a person to react offensively during a mass-shooting. You also need the mental and tactical discipline not to become a victim before you can engage the shooter.
. However, the techniques are so ingrained I find myself using them whenever I travel. Also, I know I'll be able to put on chem gear until the day I die.
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08-08-2012, 11:36 AM
#71
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There's a question I'd like to ask rhetorically... let's say there had been a SEAL, Green Beret, SWAT member, or regular old Marine... basically anybody in the audience who some serious quick reaction training and the mental discipline to establish a tactical solution. Do you think a SEAL would let the fact that he wasn't carrying stop him from trying to take down an active shooter... and succeeding?
Anybody in my list above would not have been one of the scared-to-death panicking-running-for-their-lives-completely-unable-to-defend-themselves citizens getting gunned down as they tried to run out the door. If anybody in that list had been armed, I guarantee you the incident would have gone much differently.
Anybody in my list above would not have been one of the scared-to-death panicking-running-for-their-lives-completely-unable-to-defend-themselves citizens getting gunned down as they tried to run out the door. If anybody in that list had been armed, I guarantee you the incident would have gone much differently.
You are also assuming that by "banning" guns you are actually completely restricting access to guns. All that really ends up happening is those who abide by the law no longer have access to firearms while criminals who purchase their weapons illegally already have continued access through the same channels they already were using anyway.
[...]
If guns were outlawed do you really think someone who had thoughts of mass murder would not resort to simple devices like molotov cocktails, knives, or nail bombs. All of which can be made by a 5th grader with supplies purchased at a hardware or grocery store?
[...]
If guns were outlawed do you really think someone who had thoughts of mass murder would not resort to simple devices like molotov cocktails, knives, or nail bombs. All of which can be made by a 5th grader with supplies purchased at a hardware or grocery store?
I don't know. I don't know enough about the statistics on gun violence in countries that have significant civillian restrictions.
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08-08-2012, 11:39 AM
#72
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at least one:
Jon Blunk had served in the Navy and was planning to re-enlist. On Friday, the 26-year-old took his girlfriend, Jansen Young, to see the "Dark Knight" -- when the assault began, Young says he saved her life. "Jon just took a bullet for me," Young said in an interview on "Today". "He knew and threw me on the ground, and was like, 'We have to get down and stay down.'"
While Holmes walked up and down the aisles shooting, Young says her boyfriend was a constant presence, pushing her further under the seats and out of the line of fire. Finally, as the shots slowed, she crawled out and attempted to pull up Blunk by the shoulder, but he didn't move.
While Holmes walked up and down the aisles shooting, Young says her boyfriend was a constant presence, pushing her further under the seats and out of the line of fire. Finally, as the shots slowed, she crawled out and attempted to pull up Blunk by the shoulder, but he didn't move.
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08-08-2012, 12:08 PM
#73
I feel it is a common misconception that the death penalty is a deterant for crime. The kinds of crimes that warrant the death penalty are either committed by those who do not fear death or live with the threat of death from their enemies at all times (i.e. drug lords or war criminals). Those that would normally be deterred by death but commit these crimes anyway are in a state of mind during the event in which the threat of the death penalty is the last thing they are thinking about.
Jared Lee Loughner Pleads Guilty to 2011 Tucson Shooting | NewsFeed | TIME.com
As I said, summary(immediate) public executions by firing squad will make a lot of murderers think twice.
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08-08-2012, 12:38 PM
#74
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The 40-year-old Army veteran strode into the Sikh Temple of Wisconsin shortly before Sunday services and opened fire with a 9 mm pistol. The dead included temple President Satwant Singh Kaleka, who was shot as he tried to fend off the shooter with a butter knife.
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08-08-2012, 01:19 PM
#75
Although I'm obviously pretty anti-gun control (See my first post in this thread, my only concern is liability. If that is answered, then I don't care if you own anti-tank weaponry.), it is silly to argue the death penalty is a deterrent.
Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates | Death Penalty Information Center
The death penalty is pretty well known to either not act as a deterrent, or being completely unclear (See Death penalty deter killings? Study says evidence unclear - Los Angeles Times as a reference) as to whether it has any effect at all. The crime statistics however argue clearly against it - and isn't that what one would care about when trying to argue deterrence?
Secondly, please remember that the death penalty is more expensive even than life in prison.
Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates | Death Penalty Information Center
The death penalty is pretty well known to either not act as a deterrent, or being completely unclear (See Death penalty deter killings? Study says evidence unclear - Los Angeles Times as a reference) as to whether it has any effect at all. The crime statistics however argue clearly against it - and isn't that what one would care about when trying to argue deterrence?
Secondly, please remember that the death penalty is more expensive even than life in prison.
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08-08-2012, 01:22 PM
#77
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it is silly to argue the death penalty is a deterrent.
Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates | Death Penalty Information Center
The death penalty is pretty well known to either not act as a deterrent, or being completely unclear (See Death penalty deter killings? Study says evidence unclear - Los Angeles Times as a reference) as to whether it has any effect at all. The crime statistics however argue clearly against it - and isn't that what one would care about when trying to argue deterrence?
Deterrence: States Without the Death Penalty Have Had Consistently Lower Murder Rates | Death Penalty Information Center
The death penalty is pretty well known to either not act as a deterrent, or being completely unclear (See Death penalty deter killings? Study says evidence unclear - Los Angeles Times as a reference) as to whether it has any effect at all. The crime statistics however argue clearly against it - and isn't that what one would care about when trying to argue deterrence?
I don't believe that's a fair assesment. We don't really have the death penalty.
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08-08-2012, 01:24 PM
#78
let us.
and then there's this:
and an interesting read: http://www.saf.org/journal/14/GunCon...ndtheWorld.htm
and then there's this:
and an interesting read: http://www.saf.org/journal/14/GunCon...ndtheWorld.htm
I'd argue an overhaul of national drug laws would reduce homicides far more than gun controls laws ever could.
poverty>incentive for crime>crime related homicide
You're not going to stop the crazies, nor should you waste effort in trying to do so since they are outliers within the statistics. I do, however, believe cartridge size laws for semi-automatics are not necessarily a bad thing since self protection for the 'normal' citizen shouldn't require a hundred rounds. Only the anti-government libertarians can convince themselves they have a use for a hundred round clip ... Obama might go Assad on all of us
-Zach
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08-08-2012, 01:32 PM
#80
I don't know if Roe v. Wade has any goddamn thing to do with it, but I'd totally be on board with the drug war causing all sorts of havoc. Really, if you exclude the Roe v. Wade stuff in your post, I'm completely on board with what you are saying.
The...140-some people in Texas who were innocent and executed didn't really get executed?
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