Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1441580)
i work for the federal government
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Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1441580)
cause the government is doing a stellar job at this right now?
never heard that argument before either. I've also never heard a leftist say the government should take over something before either, never have i ever... i work for the federal government, i typically get my wrists slapped when i demand excellence. |
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I must admit, never thought of that. Then again, my libertarian side, could care less about an indivudals legal status, so long as they are been productive citizens. Funny, 6 years ago, I was but ready to quit my job as a Revenue Agent, to join the Border Patrol.
Now, I'm helping undocummented immigrants, as an advocate. Funny about those little twists in life! |
That's always been my biggest issue. It's one thing if we all pay in, but those who benefit are the ones not paying in -- and the numbers for non-paying citizens is already staggering (a minority group is being oppressed). That's why I'm not as libertarian as others, I'm not for open borders.
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There are far too many studies, showing how undocummented immigrants HELP the economy, as opposed to hurt the economy. All one has to do is to visit a construction site, a farm, a ranch or processing plant; and figure out why INS is always visiting those places. They are doing the jobs that NOBODY wants to do.
But, this is getting away from health care, and into social politics. |
I have a problem with federal health-care, federal schools, federal a lot of things that are unconstitutional. There are rules. We should follow them.
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Originally Posted by The Driver
(Post 1442510)
There are far too many studies, showing how undocummented immigrants HELP the economy, as opposed to hurt the economy. All one has to do is to visit a construction site, a farm, a ranch or processing plant; and figure out why INS is always visiting those places. They are doing the jobs that NOBODY wants to do.
But, this is getting away from health care, and into social politics. The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics. -Thomas Sowell |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1442519)
there are also far too many studies that show the government does everything worse at everything... now what?
But my statement stands true, you hardly see any "red blooded Americans", working the fields, building our offices and homes, and working at the meat processing plants. Why is that? That is a data point that is both reliable and verifiable. Some poeple choose to see gloom and dome, even in the middle of Hawaiian Beach. No one can help people like that. |
Originally Posted by The Driver
(Post 1442523)
Some poeple choose to see gloom and dome, even in the middle of Hawaiian Beach. No one can help people like that.
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As Milton Friedman said, the reason illegal immigration has worked is because it is illegal. When you legalize the immigrants and let them get government benefits, the cost / benefit equations change drastically.
The constant threat of deportation keeps migrants underground, keeps them off welfare rolls, keeps their wages below that of legals, but still higher than said wages would be in their homeland. I'm not saying it is a good system, but you cannot change a fundamental part of the system and expect the other parts to remain the same. So, I agree that undocumenteds play a role in the economy. But if you advocate for them to become documented, especially en-mass, the existing studies will no longer apply. |
Originally Posted by DNMakinson
(Post 1442528)
As Milton Friedman said, the reason illegal immigration has worked is because it is illegal. When you legalize the immigrants and let them get government benefits, the cost / benefit equations change drastically.
The constant threat of deportation keeps migrants underground, keeps them off welfare rolls, keeps their wages below that of legals, but still higher than said wages would be in their homeland. I'm not saying it is a good system, but you cannot change a fundamental part of the system and expect the other parts to remain the same. So, I agree that undocumenteds play a role in the economy. But if you advocate for them to become documented, especially en-mass, the existing studies will no longer apply. |
Originally Posted by Braineack
(Post 1442526)
have you not seen the amount of herion there?
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Originally Posted by The Driver
(Post 1442523)
But my statement stands true, you hardly see any "red blooded Americans", working the fields, building our offices and homes, and working at the meat processing plants. Why is that? That is a data point that is both reliable and verifiable.
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Originally Posted by DNMakinson
(Post 1442528)
As Milton Friedman said, the reason illegal immigration has worked is because it is illegal. When you legalize the immigrants and let them get government benefits, the cost / benefit equations change drastically.
The constant threat of deportation keeps migrants underground, keeps them off welfare rolls, keeps their wages below that of legals, but still higher than said wages would be in their homeland. I'm not saying it is a good system, but you cannot change a fundamental part of the system and expect the other parts to remain the same. So, I agree that undocumenteds play a role in the economy. But if you advocate for them to become documented, especially en-mass, the existing studies will no longer apply. In addition, that's part of the reason "no one wants to do those jobs" because illegals have driven down wages to the point it's better to try to find other avenues of employment. |
Aside: mt.net seems to have a smaller proportion of leftards than, um, other places I hang out (Silly Con Valley which does have more leftards than usual). Might this be more representative of the USA in general (i.e. are leftards the minority in the USA?), or more representative of the types of people who modify cars/miatas? Or did the leftards around here just get overwhelmed and just shut up?
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1441548)
There is a fourth option. It's not a popular one, but it has its basis on the fact that the retail price of healthcare began to diverge sharply from the cost of healthcare when health insurance began to be used for health-maintenance.
Ask yourself what would happen to the price of an oil change if everyone started using their state-mandated car insurance to pay for oil changes? |
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB
(Post 1442574)
Or did the leftards around here just get overwhelmed and just shut up?
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too busy inventing new genders. :P
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It seems that the folks that I know that run with the scca tend to be more left-leaning and the people who run with NASA and some of the other de groups tend to be more right-leaning.
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