Long live Obamacare
03-29-2012, 12:44 AM
#42
While you both have valid points, I gotta side with Sav.
I think some regulation is necessary. Remember why communism didn't work? Because even if everybody within the system liked the concept, the concept does not translate into reality. Same applies with capitalism, unless we have regulations that keep people from getting ahead in an unethical manner.
Insider trading is bad.
I think some regulation is necessary. Remember why communism didn't work? Because even if everybody within the system liked the concept, the concept does not translate into reality. Same applies with capitalism, unless we have regulations that keep people from getting ahead in an unethical manner.
Insider trading is bad.
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03-29-2012, 12:47 AM
#44
Tour de Franzia
Thread Starter
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Ok, I'm in with the bet. I guess we have until June.
This will be your avatar:
or maybe this:
I tell you what, I have another river trip coming up and I'll make a new, special picture for you.
This will be your avatar:
or maybe this:
I tell you what, I have another river trip coming up and I'll make a new, special picture for you.
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03-29-2012, 01:14 AM
#50
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You are confusing "lack of (monopoly) gov't regulation" with "no regulation".Insurers who insure businesses have a monetary interest in making sure that said businesses don't injure customers or employees. Competitive pressures will force providers to create better and safer products. Businesses will arise that certify Product Safety. What do you think UL, VDE, and TUV do? Where do you think aftermarket wheel safety standard tests came from? Or the design safety regulation built into your cellphone and laptop chargers? Do you think a monopoly gov't bureaucracy can come up with better design rules than competing agencies?
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03-29-2012, 10:00 AM
#52
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Hey.. .I've got an idea, lets mandate that a service be provided for everyone. (Maybe we can even get someone famous like Reagan to sponsor it)
Its an ethical kinda deal where we don't just let people bleed to death if they're dropped at our doorway.
Lets call it emergency medicine/ the clinic of last resort.
Now, lets make this service cost a LOTA money, such that those that can't afford to pay, will never be able to pay.... and hence don't.
Now that we've got this russian roulette game going where people have a decent chance of ending up in ridiculous debt just for wanting to live... Or even worse, they get knocked unconscious, and someone calls an ambulance for them (don't they know to check for insurance cards?)
Now that we've got this in-payable debt... lets saddle the healthcare industry with it, and even have them bill the gov't for their costs. So instead of just paying for routine maintenance stuff (ounce of prevention) We'll pay for a pound of cure through our premiums and taxes.
But hey.... YOU can't make ME pay for all of these POOR FAT (insert minority of choice) PPL to have INSURANCE. (even tho I am already paying for their healthcare, albeit the most expensive way (pound of cure)) This is why the rest of the modernized world laughs at us... We claim we don't have universal health care, but really we do... its just shitty and expensive, and no one wants to talk about it or admit that it costs as much as it does.
.....
Here's a link about EMTALA http://www.marinmedicalsociety.org/m...?articleid=470
Caveats:
1. its probably not entirely fair to blame Reagan for 'the largest unfunded piece of legislation ever' (because I don't feel like fact checking that)
2. Its hard to prove that prevention cost less than the cure on a scale big enough to actually lower everyones health costs. We certainly won't know if we don't try though.
Its an ethical kinda deal where we don't just let people bleed to death if they're dropped at our doorway.
Lets call it emergency medicine/ the clinic of last resort.
Now, lets make this service cost a LOTA money, such that those that can't afford to pay, will never be able to pay.... and hence don't.
Now that we've got this russian roulette game going where people have a decent chance of ending up in ridiculous debt just for wanting to live... Or even worse, they get knocked unconscious, and someone calls an ambulance for them (don't they know to check for insurance cards?)
Now that we've got this in-payable debt... lets saddle the healthcare industry with it, and even have them bill the gov't for their costs. So instead of just paying for routine maintenance stuff (ounce of prevention) We'll pay for a pound of cure through our premiums and taxes.
But hey.... YOU can't make ME pay for all of these POOR FAT (insert minority of choice) PPL to have INSURANCE. (even tho I am already paying for their healthcare, albeit the most expensive way (pound of cure)) This is why the rest of the modernized world laughs at us... We claim we don't have universal health care, but really we do... its just shitty and expensive, and no one wants to talk about it or admit that it costs as much as it does.
.....
Here's a link about EMTALA http://www.marinmedicalsociety.org/m...?articleid=470
Caveats:
1. its probably not entirely fair to blame Reagan for 'the largest unfunded piece of legislation ever' (because I don't feel like fact checking that)
2. Its hard to prove that prevention cost less than the cure on a scale big enough to actually lower everyones health costs. We certainly won't know if we don't try though.
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03-29-2012, 10:30 AM
#53
Boost Czar
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When "liberals" argue against the free market, I ask them "what's the free market good for anyway, why don't we just have *everything* run by the gov't?". If they can't answer intelligibly, it's useless arguing with them, and, they can't argue against it intelligently if they can't say what it's supposedly good for.
Remember to hand out this:
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03-29-2012, 12:31 PM
#54
Would it be legal to start an "accident insurance" company, and bypass all of the laws that healthcare companies have to abide by? If you break your arm, I'll pay to have your arm fixed to my standards, and 2 visits to the physical therapist + some rubber bands so you can do your own therapy if you fcuked up some tendons or some crap, but if you get the flu / have diabetes / catch the HIV / need an organ replaced / come in with some pre-existing injury / etc., you can pay for that your own damn self. I wouldn't be insuring your health, I would be insuring you against accidents.
Sure would make "health-savings accounts" a hell of a lot easier to rationalize if people weren't worried about "the big one".
Sure would make "health-savings accounts" a hell of a lot easier to rationalize if people weren't worried about "the big one".
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03-29-2012, 01:22 PM
#55
Boost Czar
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"Nobody professed to understand the question of the frozen railroad bonds, perhaps, because everybody understood it too well. At first, there had been signs of a panic among the bondholders and of a dangerous indignation among the public. Then, Wesley Mouch had issued another directive, which ruled that people could get their bonds “defrozen” upon a plea of “essential need”: the government would purchase the bonds, if it found proof of the need satisfactory. there were three questions that no one answered or asked: “What constituted proof?” “What constituted need?” “Essential-to whom?” …One was not supposed to speak about the men who, having been refused, sold their bonds for one-third of the value to other men who possessed needs which, miraculously, made thirty-three frozen cents melt into a whole dollar, or about a new profession practiced by bright young boys just out of college, who called themselves “defreezers” and offered their services “to help you draft your application in the proper modern terms.” The boys had friends in Washington."
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03-29-2012, 03:26 PM
#56
Boost Pope
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This concept already exists.
Well, it used to.
Insurance of medical costs as a result of accidental injury was in fact the earliest form of health insurance, both in the US and elsewhere. In some countries it is still commonplace. In Germany, the Arbeitsunfallversicherung covers healthcare costs related to injuries arising not only at the workplace, but in commuting to and from the workplace. (It would not cover an injury which occurred in your home or while bungee jumping from the top of the Büro Center Nibelungenplatz. That would fall under Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung, which is sort of a cross between the US Social Security system and Canada's universal healthcare system.)
The problem in the US was that we kept "tweaking" the system, expanding the scope of health insurance and what we expected from it, until the common perception became that health insurance was supposed to pay for everything right down to your monthly contraceptives bill. That, of course, is not "insurance" by any recognizable definition of the word.
No amount of "reform" will fix the healthcare system in the US until we realign our understanding of what insurance is for. Until then, I'm going to start submitting claims to Geico every time I change the oil in my car.
Well, it used to.
Insurance of medical costs as a result of accidental injury was in fact the earliest form of health insurance, both in the US and elsewhere. In some countries it is still commonplace. In Germany, the Arbeitsunfallversicherung covers healthcare costs related to injuries arising not only at the workplace, but in commuting to and from the workplace. (It would not cover an injury which occurred in your home or while bungee jumping from the top of the Büro Center Nibelungenplatz. That would fall under Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung, which is sort of a cross between the US Social Security system and Canada's universal healthcare system.)
The problem in the US was that we kept "tweaking" the system, expanding the scope of health insurance and what we expected from it, until the common perception became that health insurance was supposed to pay for everything right down to your monthly contraceptives bill. That, of course, is not "insurance" by any recognizable definition of the word.
No amount of "reform" will fix the healthcare system in the US until we realign our understanding of what insurance is for. Until then, I'm going to start submitting claims to Geico every time I change the oil in my car.
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03-29-2012, 03:47 PM
#58
My wife doesn't have standard health insurance. She is covered by a healthcare cost-sharing group. It's incredibly cheap, the levels are structured to encourage members to limit their unnecessary healthcare costs, and while not every clinic or physician's group accepts it, it's fairly widely accepted (and if you happen to end up in a clinic or ER in an emergency situation and they don't accept it, the group will still cover the full costs).
We've been generally pleased with it. They did try to reject coverage for one $3000 procedure (claiming it wasn't related to an ongoing medical situation) but we disputed it, they checked the physician's records, and agreed to cover it. Try that with your insurance company.
We've been generally pleased with it. They did try to reject coverage for one $3000 procedure (claiming it wasn't related to an ongoing medical situation) but we disputed it, they checked the physician's records, and agreed to cover it. Try that with your insurance company.
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03-29-2012, 03:54 PM
#59
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This concept already exists.
Well, it used to.
...
The problem in the US was that we kept "tweaking" the system, expanding the scope of health insurance and what we expected from it, until the common perception became that health insurance was supposed to pay for everything right down to your monthly contraceptives bill. That, of course, is not "insurance" by any recognizable definition of the word.
No amount of "reform" will fix the healthcare system in the US until we realign our understanding of what insurance is for. Until then, I'm going to start submitting claims to Geico every time I change the oil in my car.
Well, it used to.
...
The problem in the US was that we kept "tweaking" the system, expanding the scope of health insurance and what we expected from it, until the common perception became that health insurance was supposed to pay for everything right down to your monthly contraceptives bill. That, of course, is not "insurance" by any recognizable definition of the word.
No amount of "reform" will fix the healthcare system in the US until we realign our understanding of what insurance is for. Until then, I'm going to start submitting claims to Geico every time I change the oil in my car.
The gov't kept meddling in the free market at the behest of the big players. It resulted in economic inefficiency and reduces competition.
This article expounds on the above:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...y-father/7617/
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