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Old 04-29-2010, 02:04 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
1) I already sold my mani
2) It kept warping like a BITCH. No idea why, since I made it just like many others made theirs and used the same materials. I'd do a long pull from 1st all the way to 5th or roughly 120mph and that would be enough for one of the flanges to start leaking. Resurfaced it like 2-3 times. Got sick of it. It was probably something I was doing wrong, cause the manifold was strong as hell and built right.
3) I don't have time right now to do any of my own diy stuff unfortunately.

If I can't get something tubular without breaking the bank and the log won't work then I guess I'll have no choice but to make my own (or wait til I have the time to do it), but I want to exhaust my other options 1st.

As for 3" downpipe I am absolutely going to run one.
I'll be running a full 3" very well flowing exhaust on my new setup
Thats why I suggested the 1/2" weirtech flange instead of the 3/8". It might be less prone to warping.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:15 PM   #42
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Oh I see. Guess I missed that in your post.
Thing is, I'm completely confused about why the hell it warped all the time, and the PROBLEM is that right now I absolutely do not have the time to be experimenting.

So "might" not warp is just not good enough at this point.

I'll do a bit more research and see what I can come up with regarding why it kept warping
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Oh I see. Guess I missed that in your post.
Thing is, I'm completely confused about why the hell it warped all the time, and the PROBLEM is that right now I absolutely do not have the time to be experimenting.

So "might" not warp is just not good enough at this point.

I'll do a bit more research and see what I can come up with regarding why it kept warping
I personally think it was all getting way too hot because of the sharp angle your downpipe had to take right out of the turbine. When stainless gets hot it shrinks like your weener in a pool.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:29 PM   #44
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begi s4
This

or the chinatown knockoff, add a strut to the dp

More later. I really wanna pick on Damon in this thread.
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:43 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by wayne_curr View Post
I personally think it was all getting way too hot because of the sharp angle your downpipe had to take right out of the turbine. When stainless gets hot it shrinks like your weener in a pool.


You know what my dad (proffesional welder) said about stainless steel used on exhaust manifolds: ZEES EEZ COMPLETELY BULLSHEET
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Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
This

or the chinatown knockoff, add a strut to the dp

More later. I really wanna pick on Damon in this thread.
I know I said I wouldn't, but

I'm actually starting to consider the knockoff now.

shhhh, don't tell anyone
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Old 04-29-2010, 02:50 PM   #46
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You know what my dad (proffesional welder) said about stainless steel used on exhaust manifolds: ZEES EEZ COMPLETELY BULLSHEET


I know I said I wouldn't, but

I'm actually starting to consider the knockoff now.

shhhh, don't tell anyone
Yea i'm considering remaking my manifold in mild as well. Stainless isn't even that pretty after its been heat cycled a bunch. Would rather have flat black painted mild steel.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:14 PM   #47
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absurdflow or fail
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by levnubhin View Post
I bet he could make pretty much anything you want.
+1

he is doing it for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Ok guys, what about this plan:

I really don't want to start on an intake mani build just yet, nor do I want to spend a **** ton of money for a custom tubular manifold just yet, and since the general opinion is that the 30r will suck ***** in internally gated form what about a slightly smaller setup with a slightly lower power goal?

instead of the 30r how about a 2876 with a .86 hotside, tubular mani, e85, 750cc injectors (may still need to go with the 1000's though), 3" full exhaust, and traditionally mounted intercooler with a smaller core (and perhaps more efficient design)

I'll bet you are right. So instead of compulsive buying I think I'll just contact him and get some quotes. Thanx man
i think this is the right track!
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:16 PM   #49
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so I did a little research on my lunch break. looks like this thing is slightly smaller than a garrett 3076 and slightly larger than the 2876 china chargers. kinda "in between".

Compared to genuine 30r's it has:
LARGER compressor wheel inducer, and a bit smaller exducer. The compressor a/r is 70 compared to 60 for the genuine.
turbine a/r is same at .86 but the turbine wheel on it is a bit smaller than the genuine 30r.


SOO

wtf does that mean in tearms how it should peform/spool compared to the real deal Garrett? I know its all just guesstimation at this point but we have a **** ton of turbo guru's here so I expect some educated guesses at least

if not this then I'm getting the 2876 Chinacharger instead. Either this or that. Still doing everything else the same (as far as injectors + e85, etc)
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:19 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
I really wanna pick on Damon in this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
1. Buy Skunk2/Blox B18 mani
2. Buy LS throttle body
3. Cut both manis strategically
4. ???
5. Profit like Andrew motherfuckin' Kidd


This **** isn't hard, and if you know a guy with a bandsaw and can find a decent tig shop it can be done for half what most custom manis cost.

EDIT: "bitch bitch bitch and cry" and wait for levnubhin's results. If Phil doesn't see at least 10% more up top I'll stfu. I know this has been discussed to death so maybe you guys are jaded, but this time next year no one will buy rods without sourcing a $120 Honda mani as well. For the "DIY" crowd we sure are a bunch of trendy *************.
Quick, I thought nubbins results were posted. I digress.

Diddler, you goofy half witted mother ******. I'm supposed to go through the trouble of sourcing parts, lining them up, hacking them, finding a grunt to weld them, fit them up, take my gem to the dyno and spend $1M US to tune it in? Only to realize that I wasn't any better off than I was before?

Do we know what we need? Plenum volume, or whatever? Can I tell a ************ that I want whatever RPM to be my torque peak and you can design a runner and plenum to match, all using ots ****?

What if I take the easy way out and straighten out the kink on my '00 mani right there inboard of the tb, holler out the plenum and call it a day?

This doesn't smell too easy to me, brah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gospeed81 View Post
EDIT: I really wish I had finished the built motor, finished this manifold project, and brought back the back-to-back dyno plots to show you guys...but I fail.
STFU. Call your mama. She gives a ****.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:25 PM   #51
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I'm about to ******* hurt you.


EDIT:

weblow69cocks,

Results are known, and more coming in if not already posted. I'm pretty sure Phil hasn't got his together yet, and his new plots are wankerFLOW handiwork (which our Russian friend should really consider).

Yes we're looking for plenum volume, I measured the two (well, a 1.6L intake mani) and posted the numbers. It was something like a 20% increase, which apparently drastically changed the dynamics of King Sav's car. It wasn't quite the 1.5*displacement, but sure opened things up a bit.

I also compared runner length for intended power ranges (based on the skunk2 design for ~8200rpm, and our stock mani which peter torque off after 5500rpm) and came up with a good guideline for what you'd shoot for should you aim to make more power from 5K to redline. I compared this to other custom manifolds I'd seen with accompanying dyno plots (BrainBEGiabomination, JayL's Flipsidefail), and decided I was pretty close at 10in, with a tolerance the size of your ***** (+-1/4").

All of this is back of the napkin stuff, but that's what us engineers do in our free time. So all you stay at home moms need to shut the **** up. It's based in sound engineering assumptions, but alas, they are assumptions based in theory, which doesn't always apply well.


My point is, for me to take another look at a build, I'd have to be going all out. My build turned into a ******* nightmare because I kept leaving stuff on the table, and it was more expensive and time consuming to go back. Your build ironically is a great example of what one should do, except for the intake you're ******* so much. It took forever, cost a kidney, but you won't ever second guess any of the components and choices you made.
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:31 PM   #52
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STFU. Call your mama. She gives a ****.
Quote:
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I'm about to ******* hurt you.
Cat Fight!



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Old 04-29-2010, 03:35 PM   #53
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Ok, assuming tubular mani and 3" exhaust, what rpm should I be expecting to hit peak boost in with the damn china 30r? what about a large china 28?

I'm thinking if I can get into at least most of the boost before 4500-4800 the turbo will work for my goals. If its going to be so ******* laggy that it doesn't even hit full boost by 5k I think I'm just going to go the 2876 route.


This is going to sound gay as ****, but another ting I like about that turbo I posted in original post is its badass looking 4" inlet
You pop the hood and BAM, that ****** looks like it will swallow babies
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:37 PM   #54
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blah blah ******* blah
Why are you polluting my thread with your foul-mouthed bullfuck?
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:39 PM   #55
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Bitch don't make me sick Hustler on you. He will skullfuck you with the angry fist of Thor
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Old 04-29-2010, 03:43 PM   #56
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On a serious note, I've been reading through Jays thread for teh 1000th time and my question is this:

If he hit 360whp on a 30r with a 99 intake mani and pump gas do you guys think I'll be able to replicate that graph (but hit maybe 300-320whp) with my proposed setup and e85 at around 15-18psi?

His stock mani chart
99 intake at 19psi

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Old 04-29-2010, 03:56 PM   #57
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^why not? Though you could spool better and still make probably 310 plus a little with 28RS.
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Old 04-29-2010, 04:27 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
Aside, how did Paul (I think it was) get such high boost out of a 2560R??
Paul didn't/doesn't run high boost on his 2560R. He makes ~300rwhp dynojet at 14psi and ~307rwhp at 17psi which he tried once on the dyno to see if he'd gain anything. So on his setup, 14psi is the most that 2560 will blow and make power.

EDIT: The only other input I have on this thread is:
I have a 80% done schedule 10 SS manifold, centered low mount T2 flanged I could finish rather quickly. It needs a head flange welded on, so mild or SS is possible. No warranty on it.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:36 PM   #59
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perhap you will hit 1000 horsepower?
'perhap' you're a ******* dumbass.
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Old 04-29-2010, 06:50 PM   #60
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The major diameters of the turbine and compressor determine the size of the turbo. The ratio of the size of the minor diameters to the size of the major diameters is just the trim. That ebay 3076 is really the equivalent of a gt2873 (if they made one). A gt30r has a huge turbine in comparison to the ebay one you linked.

You should read a bit more to determine if you really want a large minor diameter on your compressor. Here, I'll help a brotha out with a little cutting and pasting:

Inducer / Exducer and how they affect one another..............

First, the basics.....

TRIM. Trim is a ratio of inducer vs. exducer of a compressor or turbine wheel.

Formula for determining trim: (Minor wheel diameter would be the inducer on a compressor wheel and the exducer would be considered the major diameter. For a turbine the minor and major are called the same (small dia = minor, larger dia. = major) but the inducer of a turbine is the major diameter and the exducer would be the minor or smaller dia. Just think like this.. does the wheel "induce" air or "exduce" it........

[(minor wheel diameter)x(minor wheel diameter) / (major wheel diameter)x (major wheel diameter)] x 100= compressor / turbine wheel trim

T04E 60 trim (inducer = 2.290", exducer = 2.950")

[(2.290)(2.290)/(2.950)(2.950)] x 100= trim
(5.2441/8.7025) x 100= trim
.6026 x 100 = trim
60= trim

There are trim levels for separate sub families within a series family. EXAMPLE: a T04B 60-1 is a 2.34" inducer and 3.00" exducer wheel, a T04E 60 trim is a 2.29" inducer and 2.950" exducer.... more on the subject a T3 60 trim is a 1.83" inducer and 2.367' exducer. All three comp wheels have a 60 trim. The T3 will NOT flow nowhere near the to4B 60-1 or T04E 60 trim. Also note, even though the T04B 60-1and T04E 60 trim have very close wheel specs, the T04B flows much more, (partly due to the "B" width {b-width is blade height}).

Now with that said.. I'm going to generalize some aspects on how inducer vs. exducer affect one another and refer only to compressor wheels and NOT turbine. There are other factors I'll ignore for ease of discussion like overall size of the compressor, B-width, mach numbers, back sweep etc.

Your inducer is a good place to start to determine a turbo's general power potential for moving air since this is were the air is "introduced' to the turbo system. Larger the inducer the larger amount of air can be swallowed. (again, there’s many other factors like blade design, angle of attack, number of blades, etc.). The larger the inducer the more power it takes to spin it up also (lag) because with each rotation its swallowing up more air so the harder the turbine would have to work. The exducer is were the air that has entered the compressor axially from the inducer gets slung out radially by the exducer blades and gets compressed as it enters the snail or scroll of the compressor housing. The larger the exducer the higher the tips speed for a given turbine shaft speed, so the faster and more compressed the air gets slung out. Generally, the smaller the trim number (smaller trim = bigger difference between the inducer and exducer, larger trim number = closer in size between the inducer and exducer) the more effient the turbo will be at higher pressure ratios. The larger the trim the more air the turbo can move, but will not be as effient at higher pressure ratios. It’s always a trade off. This is why it’s really important to be able to read compressor maps and match the turbo to your engine needs and performance goals. Fortunately for many, most of this leg work and math have been done and all you have to do is ask knowledgeable people on the forum to get the answers.
As I stated above, the larger the inducer the more lag or longer spool-up time will be realized. BUT, with a larger exducer (with same size inducer) an interesting thing happens. In certain circumstances your spool-up time can DECREASE. This is due impart to the tip speed of the larger exducer is faster for the same shaft speed as the smaller exducer comp wheel. The higher tip speed flings the air out with more force. This only works in moderation and in the smaller to mid sized framed turbo compressors (t3 – T4 sized). There is diminishing returns in this phenomenon. So don’t expect to place a 3 inch inducer monster turbo on your ride with an 8 inch exducer and expect it to spool like a stocker. This is practiced quit frequently in hybrid or (HiFlo) stock/upgraded turbos. The turbo shop will “up-grade” the comp wheel by adding a larger inducer for overall more flow potential, then up-size the exducer as well to gain back some responsiveness and decrease spool time that the larger inducer took away from. Think of it this way: it takes X amount of exhaust energy (flow and pressure) to spin up your stock turbo in Y time, but your producing X1 exhaust. So you have great spool-up. Then you stick a larger comp wheel on there, it has the same exducer (major) wheel diameter but it has a larger trim and larger inducer for added kick. It now takes X2 energy to spool it up like your stocker did but your only making X1 exhaust flow before your wastegate opens. You now have more power, but at the expense of less responsiveness, otherwise known as turbo lag. Now if you take and replace that “up-graded” comp wheel with another one with the same inducer dia. But have a larger exducer on it lower your trim (but overall still a larger comp wheel physically then the stocker). Now because the tip speed will be greater for the same shaft speed as the first upgrade, you’ll make boost sooner. Its now only taking X1 exhaust energy to spool it. This is how in moderation you can upgrade and have similar responsiveness to a stocker but with more flow. Some of this same responsiveness will be also do to a most likely up-graded exhaust system also. Again, this doesn’t work well with larger framed turbo’s do to mach differentials (blade speed from the base of the shaft to the tip gets a greater and greater differential the larger the turbo gets. Back sweep in the blade design helps a little. Many other factors such as overall mass {more inertia} and aero factors as well). Turbonetics makes exclusive wheels just to take advantage of this. They have a t3 H trim wheel with a 60 trim configuration. They come out with a “Super 60” wheel (its actually a lower trimed number when you do the math, but its basically the same exact wheel {same inducer size} with a larger exducer) to spool like the smaller 50 trim, but flow like the 60 trim. And because it has the same exact blade design and contours, it fits within a 60 trim housing with no mods.

I think I went too deep into this..LOL… and yet I feel like I left out a lot of details, but this would have been a ridiculously long post. I also feel one should go out and get books, articles, etc if one is really interested and wants to know more on there own. All the statements I made were generalized and doesn’t necessarily apply to all comp wheels (trim does apply to all, mainly within Garrett and Garrett clones {Turbonetics, Innovative, Majestic, Master Power, early Borg Warner, AiResearch, etc. etc.}). Hope this helped anyone looking to know the “basics”.

In short. Larger inducer the more flow, more lag. Larger exducer the more effient in higher pressure ratios, but hurts overall flow, produces boost quicker for the same given inducer size. Higher the trim (closer the inducer and exducer ratio), the more likely the turbo will flow more at lower boost ratios and longer spool up time. The higher the trim (larger variance from inducer to exducer ratio) the quicker it will make boost, and it be happier at higher pressures and lower flow numbers. The lower trim comp wheels also tend to come on sooner and more linear, were the higher trim comp wheels tend to come on abruptly (again, just generalizations, as turbine trim, turbine housing A/R and motor port work will effect spool and how it comes on also. Comp housing A/R can also determine how abruptly a turbo will produce boost as well).
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