BP turbo vs K20 NA
I have been kicking around the idea of doing a K series Honda swap, since it seems that the latest thing to do is the F20c in a miata. I did some research on the K20/24 and it seems like you can make a lot of HP in them, but the torque sucks. I wanted to get the K series experience, so I went over to my honda guru friend's house yesterday and drove his 4 door Civic Si. He has an Injen intake, a full header back exhaust, not sure what brand, but the primaries are huge. He also tunes with K-Pro. I drove it and was really disappointed. I asked him how much power he thinks it makes and what it weighs. He said a little over 2700 lbs he'd guess, and he'd also guess 210whp. I asked how much torque? He goes, "like nothing, I don't know, but not much at all." The car was OK considering it was a FWD 4 door car, but I really expected a lot more out of it. It was also loud, like big time Ricer Boy loud, which I didn't like at all.
Then I left my friend drive my car. He was shocked how close the shifter throws were, and he said it felt like he had to shift a lot. We got on the highway, took the next exit, then got back on going the other way we came. I told him after the traffic clears, pull out in 1st and stand it to the floor. He did and it spun all of 1st gear, he slammed 2nd and it spun 1/2 way through that gear, slammed 3rd gear, then 4th, then we're at the next exit. Now I have pro's and con's. K20 pros: Lighter than my BP The fuel rail isn't a bitch to get to, in fact, everything looks easy to get to The harness looks simpler Don't need a custom ECU for tuning Looks like local craigslist is littered with them, and cheap K20 cons: Aside from the lack of torque, I can't really find anything to complain about. My car pro's: It makes decent power and very good torque Simple setup, everything fit's properly My exhaust sounds really good, no ricer boy at all My car cons: The turbo spools way to fast You have to use an aftermarket or custom ECU to tune it The only way to make good power on a BP without dropping thousands is FI My injector rail sucks to get to What do I do? Rebuild my oil burner of an engine and put a bigger turbo on? Research building a K series motor that makes the power and torque I want? Is a 4 cylinder running NA that makes about 225whp/207wtq too much to ask? |
Why would you even consider this? What a waste of time.
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K swap it
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K20 then turbo?
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If it "ain't broke", don't fix it. The Honda motor is exponentially better than the Mazda engine, but that's going to be a shit-ton of work and not much gain. If you didn't already have the turbo stuff this would be a different story.
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GL with the FWD to RWD conversion part, but for power like you are looking for the K24A2 is the motor you would want. It's from the TSX. I'm sure you could easily get the power you are looking for out of that motor with pistons and cams. I'm 100% certain of it actually. I'm pretty sure they are now making up to or over 400whp NA with all out K series builds.
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There's a local guy who just built up a K series. I'm not sure of the head/block combo but I do know he was running a big turbo and 2200cc injectors...he dyno'd 850hp.
If you want to go K, do a K20 head with a K24 bottom. The honda guys call it "Frankenstein" cause it's apparently the best combo for power |
Something to remember, there are several versions of the K20. Those you see on craigslist are not all created equally. Most of the motors you find are going to be base model motors that were detuned to a 160hp rating. Weaker internals, lower compression, lower redline, less aggressive cams, and iVtec don't make for a simple upgrade either.
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Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 747577)
If it "ain't broke", don't fix it. The Honda motor is exponentially better than the Mazda engine, but that's going to be a shit-ton of work and not much gain. If you didn't already have the turbo stuff this would be a different story.
For some info: The K20A2, found in the RSX type-S...that's the hot ticket. Stock it makes 200hp/141tq at the flywheel with 11:1 compression. The K20 uses an 86mm bore and 86mm stroke. When you put the K20 head on the K24 it's like having a stroked K20 due to the longer stroke of the K24 bottom. The K24 is 2,354 cc's and uses a 87m bore with a 99mm stroke. Stock they have about 9.7:1 compression and make abbout 160hp/160ftlbs at the flywheel. Obviusly the Rev range is different between the K20 and the K24. |
Why bother when you could do an F20C swap?
The K20 is pretty impressive but is mostly hype, there is nothing it could do that the F20C couldnt do better. Also, youre very mistaken about the tuning solutions for the K series. The OBD-I honda engines can be tuned for next to nothing, the newer engines like the K20/K24, F20C/F22C, D17, J30/J32, etc all have to be tuned with Hondata K-pro, which will set you back nearly a grand. |
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie
(Post 747701)
Why bother when you could do an F20C swap?
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 747703)
Because he's never going to actually do it and is just trolling.
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie
(Post 747710)
Another thirdgen thread? :facepalm:
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie
(Post 747701)
the newer engines like the K20/K24, F20C/F22C, D17, J30/J32, etc all have to be tuned with Hondata K-pro, which will set you back nearly a grand.
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Get a reverse gear transmission so you can run a B20 or H22
Or flip the differential over and hope the transmissions oiling system will survive running backwards |
TSX or Accord (accord is cheaper) block w/ civic si head + i/h/e and stage 3 skunkworks cams = 270whp, over 200ft/lbs of torque and honda reliabilty. There's info out there on what's needed to swap a k20 into an s2000, I assume the swap would be similar into the miata.
Basically it would be a tremendous amount of work and in the end it might not be worth it. It would be awesome to have 270whp, 200wtq NA in a miata and have good reliability and gas mileage. I am not a fanboy, however I do have experience racing S2000s and Civics. In my opinion K20>F20. The K20 takes better to tuning and has equal or better reliability. |
The F20 and K20 are very, very similar as they were designed around the same time (oil pumps swap, etc). You'd be vastly better off going with the F20C over hassling with the K20X#.
But I'm with the rest. I think this is just a pipe dream. |
Originally Posted by thirdgen
(Post 747730)
I want to run an NA 4 cylinder so bad, while keeping the costs similar to what it does to put a turbo setup on a miata. .
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Originally Posted by thirdgen
(Post 747612)
I always try to stick with that theory. If my car runs good the way it is, why should I be a meathead and put a whole different engine in just because?
For some info: The K20A2, found in the RSX type-S...that's the hot ticket. Stock it makes 200hp/141tq at the flywheel with 11:1 compression. The K20 uses an 86mm bore and 86mm stroke. When you put the K20 head on the K24 it's like having a stroked K20 due to the longer stroke of the K24 bottom. The K24 is 2,354 cc's and uses a 87m bore with a 99mm stroke. Stock they have about 9.7:1 compression and make abbout 160hp/160ftlbs at the flywheel. Obviusly the Rev range is different between the K20 and the K24. Kraftwerks makes a K20 Rotrex kit. Those guys are pumping out 450whp on a C38-61 at like 12PSI. |
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