First time turboing! $4500 with a 250whp goal.....Achievable?
 

Whats up guys, I have recently had some problems out of my car and i have came to the conclusion to over haul it. Heres some backround info on my car.

It is a 96 M edition, 67,000 miles on it. just replaced the head gasket, timing belt, acc belts, valves, seats, and the head was milled. well the guy that assembled it put autolite plugs in it and the one in the #4 cyl was faulty, and the electrode broke off in my cylender. now i am having nothing but problems. So i am going to set aside atleast 800 a month until this summer and do what i can to her (I will probably be able to put a little more than 800 in but this is worst case scenario). I am starting off with 500 in my miata fund and am not touching any of the money until the build.

My car has a jrsc on it now it is stock other than that, and the above stated tune up. I think 250whp is a reasonable goal for my price range, i just would like some input on how to get there!


(I already plan on boreing it .060 over so i know my walls arnt dammaged from the faulty plug)


My list so far:
.060 over forged pistons+machine work $1000
H beam rods $330
Megasquirt $500
tune by Dkgoodrich $400

So what turbo kit, powertrain, etc. will get me there on my budget?

FM1 clutch will be $350
6 Speed will be $600-900

After you add in clutch and 6 speed that will leave a little less then 2 grand for the actual turbo setup. It will be doable, but will take a lot of time and searching for good deals on used parts.

wait...250rwhp?

Your list is currently $1730 off point.

If you were going for 350rwhp, then it would only be $400 off the mark.


edit: oh i didnt read, still I've ingested much worse things than an eletrode from a spark plug...it wouldn't bother me in the slightest so long as compression/leak was good.

Well I will be going with a stage 2 ky clutch and pressure plate, i have a buddy that is sponsered by them and he can get that set up for me for $200 give or take. He has been running a stage 3 ky for a while now and everything is working well (495 fwhp slowbolt ss)

Your the second person to tell me a six speed would be a smart decision, but dont alot of guys run five speeds around those numbers?

The compression is 90 in that cylender lol.

You don't need the 6-sp.

cylinder

ah. Still, a 250rwhp goal...I'd just budget for a "new" short block.

The other guy that recommended it said at 250-300hp it would last around 15k miles

What is a KY clutch? I have tried out a ton of different clutch for the Miatas ranging from the cheapest of the cheap to just about the most expensive you can get. There are only 3 clutch manufactures I will honestly suggest for anyone who needs a clutch for a miata. They are the FM clutches, the 949 Racing Twin Disk, and ACT.

A lot of people do run 5 speeds at those power levels, a lot of those same people have also put in more then a single 5 speed at those levels. While a 5 speed might last for a while, it will eventually go. Upgrading to a 6 speed while the engine is out is just a good idea to make sure you don't have to do the work again later.

Honestly with the built bottom end you will be sometime in the future go above the 250hp and thats when a 6 speed will be nice.

Well I predict the other guy will last 5 more months.


Aren't arbitary figures fun?

Skip it for now and save the cash for the build. If/when it blows then you can swap or just drop in another 5 speed. It's not like your 5 speed has any value. I have a low mile 99 trans that I can't get $150 for.

I am in Kentucky, and its a company here. I know it has all the ingrediants to sound like a sketchy clutch, but everyone around here runs them in all the imports, so il give it a try in the miata and give some feedback on here with how it does!

But I think I will do the six speed. I'm starting to notcie that my "budget" is shrinking lol. This is making me consider doing more of an engine build and adding the turbo later on.

:td: this thread fails to deliver.

Good luck if you want to go with KY clutches. If they can make something that works and for a decent price I wish you the best of luck with it.

The budget you have is a great budget to build a drive train that will handle something like 300-500hp. After that is done then save up and go with the turbo.

Sounds to me like your over engineering this. 250whp is not that much, put a clutch in and a turbo kit on with a good ecu and you should not need any of the other parts you and other people have listed. A stock miata motor will hold 250ft-lbs and the 5 speed can hold about the same. If you want to make 400whp go ahead and build the block and put in the 6 speed and all that good stuff, but for 250whp dont over complicate things. And .20 over should clean up any damage an electrode could cause, in your case its probably a bent valve because an electrode is not going to make its way through a piston.

See i was thinking the same thing, but I knew miatas didnt put up very good numbers compared to hondas etc. So i figured it would take a little more than that to reach the 250hp mark.

But you dont think the electrode scarred up the walls?

Don't forget fuel injectors to support that HP. The stock ones (assuming yours are stock) won't have the capacity.

Also, skip (or at least reduce) the $500 tune. You'll learn a lot more about your car and the MS if you tackle the street tuning yourself.

Start off with the MSPNP base tune for fuel and spark. Uber conservative.

For fuel tuning, we have GREAT tools. Either use TunerStudio's auto-tune or use the VE Analyzer tool in MegaLogViewer (both by Phil Tobin -- make sure you register -- he DESERVES our support). That will produce a far better fuel tune than you can get at a dyno. I personally like and use VE Analyzer.

Tuning spark is the only area where I would consider going to a tuner, only because of the steady-state capability that allows you to find MBT. However, if you show up with a well-sorted car (i.e., fuel table nailed and spark table safe), you can really cut down your dyno expense. There are good threads here covering subjects such as spark maps, building det cans, and even dyno tuning. If you read through these, you're likely to know a lot more than your tuner by the time you get there (be tactful, just use the knowledge to get your money's worth).

I'm also playing with log analysis software to see if I can efficiently identify MBT with recorded street pulls. If that pans out, the only reason to go to a dyno would be for bragging rights -- dyno day would suffice for that.

6-speed for 250rwhp, MSI for ECU...sigh.

My minions are failing me today...

I'm so embarassed.

Never really considered tuning it myself. The guy sponsered by ky clutch does all his own tuning, he said he would be more than glad to help me with anything like that. I think that would help me save alot of money.

I would be willing to sacrifice a few dozen horses to have a reliable "done right" car for my budget. I am going to begin removing my engine asap and take it to the machine shop to get checked out. and if the walls and pistons are fine, I will do stock bore forged pistons and rods and purchase the FM turbo kit with no electronics and still have around $1000 for tuning and a clutch.

I wonder what Savington has to say about a .060" overbore...

The common consensus here is that stock pistons are good to ~300rwhp. Forged pistons are (likely) unnecessary for your stated goal, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.

Stock pistons wouldnt throw some reliability out the window??

I can't find the thread, but some respected people here were actually claiming the inverse IIRC - i.e., forged pistons are actually inferior to cast pistons for longevity and reliability. I'd recommend you search on it.

Maybe you can cut a deal. He helps you with the tuning and you guys both learn MS? Win-win.

I found some stuff on a k20 honda forum saying what you just stated, looks like its cast pistons for me. What do I owe you guys for saving me all this money and time? hah.

But yep, sounds like a good deal to me.
Just shot a text to my local machine shop owner asking about a price on checking my head and block to see what the compression problem in cylinder four is. Once he replies its of to the races!

Who said that?

Not all miatas fall short of the 300whp mark on stock motors. 90% of the users on this forum put their miatas together for road racing or auto x or something of that nature where spool is paramount. If you run a bigger turbo with a larger A/R and a good flowing tubular manifold i would venture to say you could prolly keep a stock short block alive at 350whp for a good while. I speculate that with e85 and a good set of cams in a 99 head you might could crack 400whp with a stock shortblock, but at that point rods are only 300$ and stock pistons would hold up fine with e85.

Theres no way the electrode could score the cylinder wall so deep that 20 over wouldn't clean it up, and if its that bad just get another stock motor.

MSPNP.



If I was craking open the motor to build it, as it seems you are planning to, I wouldn't skip the rods/forged pistons.

How many transmissions total have been in your car? I know of at least 2.

If he going to build a bottom end, there is no reason not to spend a little bit more and get a transmission that will probably last him as long as the motor.

Well guys, i may do some little stuff to the head, but if i dont need to touch the block im not going to. my car will be a daily (except during the winter). So is I am going to get the FM turbo kit without electronics, some 550ish injectors, megasquirt, stage 2 ky clutch, and like a said maybe a little head work.

I was referring to the fuel and spark tables that are published on the MSPNP website as being a safe starting point for self tuning. I wasn't recommending the MSPNP. That said, I'm pretty happy with mine.

I am, however, delighted by my apparent promotion to "minion."

Back on point . . . .

I think this is a good idea. It should be just about perfect for you.

Looks like I will be doing pistons after all. I took the head off and this is what I got. The walls are in suprisingly good shape though!

Fix engine, buy megasquirt, buy my setup for sale and totally win.

JB weld it and move on.

now you know how much clearance you have above top of piston

Looks like you had some bad detonation, i dont think the electrode did that. The same detonation that broke your piston ate your electrode off. I would still just go buy a stock 1.8 shortblock or even longblock. If you live in the Tampa area i know a guy selling a 99 motor with everything on it for stupid cheap, he wont ship it though.

You got 90 psi of compression out of that? :giggle:

whats he asking,i live in wpb just got a 90 miata that the crank keyway might be getting ready to go on, possibly make a drive for a good priced replacement : )

Just IMO, but oversized pistons cost the same as stock size. Boring it out for any of the machinists I've talked to are a miniscule cost increase compared to just a hone.

When I get around to doing my engine, I'll be doing 40 over because it does not add substantially to the cost. But YMMV.

Well I might be able to get a good deal on boring (free) if I do decide to do it. One of my good friends works at his brothers race shop and his brother is going to thailand on the 27th for a few weeks....So i will just so happen to bring it in then, while my buddy is running the shop=)

I would never consider using "free" engine machine work. You get what you pay for.

Undeniable truth. Boring/honing cylinders isn't the easiest thing to do right.