FMII - External gate on manifold.
 

Guys,

I have a 1.6 FMII mani/dp which I plan on fitting with a GT2860 but I would quite like to use an external wastegate. This is partly because I prefer them (synapse wastegates are baus), and partly because re-jigging the actuator so it fits on the turbo after clocking is a PITA.

On the FM site, it says that “The manifold has been designed to allow fitment of an external wastegate if desired”, along with this lovely photo:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1341310695

is this something that people actually do? I have looked quite hard, and have never seen a single setup/photo where this has option been utilized. Is this due to design flaw or something else? It just seems unlikely that FM would design something into the manifold that didn’t really work after all the R&D they put into the thing.

Thoughts?

The majority of people don't want to deal with extra plumbing (or noise if VTA), and cost of an EWG IF their internal gate is controlling boost sufficiently. Many who are running larger turbos where EWG are desired are running custom manifolds and not the FM w/EWG port.

What Frank said: most running the fm log aren't going with a turbo big enough to need ewg. CAN you do it? Yes, probably. The begi s4 or whatever has the ewg welded onto the casting, so I guess you can do the same here. I wouldn't really do that though.

I don't think you would weld anything to the FM manifold to make it 2-bolt EWG compatible. The "FM" logo pad area on top gets machined flat and the holes drilled, that's all. Should be pretty simple and cheap to blockoff with a plate if you want to go back or sell it.

Interesting. And makes perfect sense, didn't even think of it like that before.

Tim, that is great idea. I just might be doing that.
I wonder how much of a ---- it is to tap a cast manifold?

It won't be difficult.

I was assuming it was as simple as that tbh. I was more interested in whether or not it was due to cracking issues etc. I had no intention of welding flanges on, because ---- welding cast iron. flatting and drilling was how I was looking to approach it.

If it really is just down to the time and effort making it fit, then I may just do it.

IMO drilling a few holes is less hassle than fabbing up a bracket to hold the actuator.

Give it a shot. Make sure to take and post lots of pictures.

I've actually talked to Jeremy at FM regarding an EWG option - machining the "Flyin' Miata" flat and drilling for a 2-bolt EWG is the exact design consideration used for that part of the manifold.

Did he mention any suitable sizes etc?

2 bolt 40mm should work, but it would be nice to know what FM themselves think..

if a 38 is enough on 99% of our cars/setups, then pretty much any size will be fine.

I was thinking more fit than function. But I'll get the tape measure out when I get home and see...

I tried this with the one I bought from their deal of the day. That picture you're linking (even though I can't see it) is NOT a good representation of the new manifold's space you have to work with. I learned that quick when I started measuring with my spare EWG gasket.

You will run into some space issues. My 38mm flange was going to hang off the edge of the FM "logo" area. I discussed it with a forum fabricator and it can be done, but you'll most likely have to come up with a solution to getting the flange to mate flat due to the hang off. However, the top of the manifold is amazingly thick and robust, so I'm sure you can get creative with it and not worry about cracking ever.

But, I only tried with my wastegate, and I know the new designs are all getting smaller. So you very well could have a cake walk here.

I'm under the assumption that you are working with a new manifold, so this probably won't be on topic. But, if you're working with the older manifolds, they are stupid easy to convert to EXG. There is a flat space on the bottom that FM used for their FM3 system and Begi uses it now for their S5 system

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1341327897

The new fm EwG setup uses a turbine housing with it built in.
Copy and paste doesn't work on the iPad... Just google it.

My begi s5 is way different than the old begi fm manifold. It has weld els welded onto it and is the new divorced flow style with the flow diverted cast into it. It also blows to get to the wastegate. You must take the turbo off or the manifold off to get to anything on it except the vacuum fitting, and I can barely get to that....

Other than that I like it and I got a pretty good deal on it barely used.

The new one uses the ATP hot side by the looks of it. I've already spoken to ATP and the smallest they can go is a .71 housing - which will be too big for the 1.6 motor.

It is a shame really, as I wanted one of those housings so hard. I wanted to rub my genitals on it etc.

I'll just have to see how the synapse wg I have will fit.

Because all the honeys love vband ewgs and that's the easiest way for FM to try to catch up to everyone else.

I don't know... You have to pay to play with that setup.... One advantage though is I can order one today and it could be on my car in 2 days.

Maybe I am just old school but I prefer an EWG that is fed from the exhaust runners (all four) before it hits the turbine wheel and housing which could lead to 'overspeed' and a shattered turbine wheel. A set boost is achieved before the turbo via the WG and thus is controlled more accurately and another aspect that seem's to be forgotten is that most WG's can be had with different psi springs. So imho an EWG that is fed off the turbine housing is a waste of time and money and leads to more headaches especially concerning maintenance issues.

My EWG (TIAL MVR) will be v-band as I am a "Honey" and have traveled the "bloody knuckle bolt-brigade and access" to many times.

Playing devil's advocate:

What difference does it make if the wg is on the collector or another 2 inches down into the housing?

From what I've read from people who know a lot more about turbos than I do, this is an 'optimal' place for boost control - as close to the turbine as possible.

its a log manifold

it doesn't have a collector you plebe

and all that matters is that gas is vented before it hits the turbine wheel

plus

optimal my ass. if you make 350hp i will buy you a spotted dick eurotrash.

All 4 of the runners meet in a single location. I’ll give you that it isn’t all pointing the same way and pretty like a tube mani, but it still “collects” before going into the turbo.

Also, this discussion was more about if having the wg on the turbo or manifold, not specifically my FM one.

I’m not aiming for 350hp, but I will let you buy me a spotted dick though x

lol

good read more, noob

and then ask yourself how much money you're willing to spend on a cast manifold.

I've already got an FM manifold. I'm well aware of the restrictions, but I'm not after big numbers.

the tracks in the UK just don't really work with huge power. for the money I spent on the FM kit, it was a no brainer.

I never once said I wanted big power, just if a ewg fitted on an fm mani - so I'm not sure where this argument came from...

I'm just trying to be realistic. It honestly does not sound seem like you can warrant the need for an external wastegate since you want to keep the power moderate. Unless you get the new turbine housing from FM, there really is no other "clean" way of doing it. I tried and I failed. The cost of modding the manifold to work with even my 38mm wastegate was going stupid.

However, I run an external wastegate on my current 200hp setup and I wouldn't have it any other way. But that manifold was designed for one.

As far as placement goes, the "FM" logo would be perfect. Turbine housing mounted wastegates work fine, too. The new FM manifold is actually a nice piece for being a cast log.

Edit: just go hardcore with it
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1341938009

Fair play. I’m well aware that it is slightly over the top to run an ewg on a 250hp setup, but as I said before – if it was simple to do, I may as well.

Adding a wg that I already have by drilling some holes is easier than fabbing up a new bracket for the actuator (and ewg’s are awesome).

If it looks remotely troublesome though, I’m going to keep it internal and just grumble about the actuator.

I feel like a broken record. I did the measurements for my "smaller" wastegate and it wasn't even close.

Have to taken measurements yet? I should have asked that on page 1.

no i havent. the weather here is ----, and im not going near the garage until it gets sunny.

allso this is a way off, as i need to build the engine up first, so im not in a rush.

fitting the WG to the manifold is the easy part.

making the pipe to dump it back into the exhaust is the part chock full of suck.

Here is my Begi S5: I accept it, although it is an interesting way to do it. (WG flange faces down)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...9102_large-jpg

I think the real question is "What do you percieve or think a collector is"?

Look it is your money and with every percieved optimum setup you learn something. I have been doing this sort of thing since '85 and my tuner/friend/engine builder has F1 experience yet that is neither here nor there. Do some research and see how many people are running a turbine/wastegate housing.

Boost should be controlled BEFORE it hits the turbine but then again I only have 27yr's of turbo experience so what do I know.

It is controlled before it hits the turbine? it is literally about an inch past the flange, just a bit closer to the turbine, not in/on it or after it. That would be stupid.

look:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342086382
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342086382

I honestly don't see how that placement will be overly troublesome when compared to the ease of installation. There are arguments that this is actually a better spot, as it is closer to the turbine. The only issues i have heard of is with BIG turbos on high HP motors (600+) the boost can be slightly bouncy due to the slight changes in the AR when the gates opens - but this is at 30+ PSI... So isn't really worth talking about in context.

I still think this is a good route, I just don't like the fact the AR is .71, which is a bit too big for what I want - hence the thread.

That said, I put the WG up against the mani last night, and it will be too much faffing about to get it cleanly installed as the flat area isn't large enough.

I think a nice fit would be a big hole so you could fit a pipe in neatly, then weld a flange to that so its raises it half an inch, similar to how fwMiata has his.

That said, I think I'm going to keep it on an actuator for now. If I feel I can live with a bigger AR, I'll get the ATP housing.

My begi s5 manifold cracked where the stupid weld els were welded to the dumb cast iron. that is a crappy bond. begi fail #9892389849389112


OP your reasons for running EWG are fukking retarded. Because Synapse WG is baller? You're a fukking moron. You're going to die. Trust me.

It was more to do with the fact I have one, and prefer using EWGs over IWGs, as they are better.

And I don't think you're in a position to be throwing "moron" about ^^

I'm gonna do an EWG swap on my cast FM manifold and then you guys will be like "wow, what a slick setup...that StarletRick guy was on to something".
Instead of reading this: "awwww shiii nugggzzz ur a moron, whatdafug yabadabactuvb".
You'll read this: "what a great use of an old boring manifold to adapt it into something different that works REALLY well."

If you had an ECU out of a Toyota Camry, and you knew it was better than the ECU for the Miata, would you swap in a Toyota Camry engine?

ok?

All I'm saying is that I have a wastegate, they are better than internal ones, and if it was easy/simple to fit.

and tbh, if an ecu out of another car was easily available/free, better, and very easy to fit and install; you would be using it, as well as everyone else here.

If you actually do have data showing that the EWG placement on the housing but just before the turbine scroll is 'bad', please show it. Otherwise that plain lack of logic makes you seem dumb.

Back on topic.
I think it would be a great idea for the OP to put his EWG on the FM manifold. He has it already, it should be simple. I would consider the same thing. Plumbing a EWG dump is simple there, those who say otherwise haven't routed a difficult dump to have a good reference to how easy that location is to route. It's too bad the OP says it won't fit...Does your wastegate have a non-standard 2 bolt flange? Or is the physical size of your actuator housing too big?

Ignore the vbands. The turbo is in the same exact spot at the FM & BEGI cast manifolds. Because I had vband EWG I could rotate it to make the fabrication easier, but even if it were straight out there is still lots of room for fabrication.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342105981

Looks like FM planned to rotate it like I did:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1342105981

Thanks Tim.

Looking at that CAD photo, it looks like they changed it slightly on production.

The top of the mani looks like this:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...8hjo1_1280.png

And you just don’t quite have the area to get nice holes drilled. They would be on the edges of the raised area etc.

I just remembered I have an old greddy 38mm wastegate at home somewhere, that’s a 4 bolt square flange…

that might be a winner…

I’ll take pics and see how it looks.

lol
tha'ts a cool story, and Ima let you finish, but you're really not doing anything new or exciting. people have done this many times over, and its do-able, so I dunno why people are making such a fuss about it in here.

if you have the skeelz, do it.
if you don't, don't.

Jesus ------- christ has anyone read a damn thing I've written in this thread?!

38mm wastegate WILL NOT FIT ON THE ------- MANIFOLD

FM DID NOT LEAVE ENOUGH SPACE FOR A 2 BOLT FLANGE, IT WILL HANG OFF THE SIDES AND IT WILL NOT WORK

From Page 1

FUKING READ YOU STUPID GODDAMN NOOB

Ok, then how about this. You're retarded.

No, for 250hp, your stupid EWG is not better than an IWG. You're pointlessly adding complexity to your setup. It's not going to make a damn difference in power and your shiit is just going to be less reliable. And you're going to have to make new parts.

How about I give you $200 to crush your synapse wastegate with a sledgehammer?

Tim,
If you are contradicting my input why are you posting pics of setup's of non-turbine housing wg's? Then you go on to say "ignore v-bands"? I have used v-bands with great success and less headaches yet then again I do not know what I am talking about.

Frankly the info given by self-imposed guru's such as yourself is misleading and blasphemy. Alot of people here are so narrowminded and think just because they have turbo'd a Miata their opinion should not be questioned, how small minded is that?

Anyone here who wants a truthfull/experienced opinion can email me.

Dude I'll send you $200 so you can check your ego and stop acting like you are a God, ok?

I think the pictures were to demonstrate that the wg location is a good one. This thread was about that after all, the wg on the turbo was a side discussion. Hence the 'back on topic'.

And the ignore vband comment was referring to the photo, not that we should all not use them. I think all the absurd stuff he makes does, so it would be a dumb statement if he meant that.

I'd be interested in your experienced opinion on the wg turbo housings though, as I wouldn't write that off in future as an option, and I can't find anything but positive views online for our kind of application.

Also, faeflora, I would gladly accept 200 dollars for that. I accept PayPal if you'll cover the fee.

Check yourself, tex. Your ego is overstepping its bounds. Your inability to interpret the context of a conversation doesn't give you an excuse to have diarrhea of the mouth, regardless of how many decades of experience you have in the field of conversation. Next time, keep the $hitty breath to yourself until you've correctly understood the conversation, nobody likes diarrhea breath.

Breath stinks cause of talking out of a$$!

Rick,
I have no personal experience with turbine housings w/ew as my past setups had the wg mount on the exhaust manifold centered up to collect the exhaust from all four runners. I will also attempt to find some data on that particular setup and will let everyone. I am all for trying new setups guys and I think it is good to have debates and I also believe in facts and proof so I do not mean to sound like I am hating ;). Every setup is different depending on someones desired outcome.

I think we are all on the same page here and that is gaining knowledge so on that note I will kindly offer all an olive branch of truece. Hopefully we can move past this and I will make a conscious effort to be less confrontational. I enjoy this community simple for the fact that we are all boost heads.

I hope everyone has a great and safe weekend and I'll try to gather what info I can about the turbine/wg setup.

__________________________________________________ _________________________________

You have a great setup but your approach needs some work, just friendly advice.

Do you honestly believe it is ok for you to be so disrespectful? I'm sure you are a bigger person than that!

I disagree and agree. For 250hp an IWG is just fine but then again an EWG would also suffice especially since we should all know by now that hp is addicting so with an EWG it could it could be less expenditure as it is already part of the system once the 250hp goal is reached and wants to be exceeded.

One thing you failed to mention, but I do it all the time, is that wg's come in different sizes and with different internal springs for different boost settings. Just thought I would bring these important items up. No harm no foul no disrespect.

If he wants more than 250hp ever then he should use a different manifold.

I'm with ya man and this just goes to show how crazy things can get when going turbo. I always recommend getting advice from tuners/shops and from people such as yourself who have traveled this road.

I am finding just bits and pieces of info on the net as I have not yet had the chance to call some of the well known shops or the people I know in the industry. I did run across this comment while searching and it seem's to have merit,

The main problem with putting the wastegate there is that it is actually altering the A/R of the turbine housing (i.e. the area in the section is increasing and decreasing as the wastegate opens, which has an overall effect on the average area/radius of the turbine housing.

I've seen a couple people run such setups in situations where they could not fit an external wastegate, or when they had a nice cast manifold that did not have provisions for one an EWG (I was in said situation). These people complained of boost fluctuations, creep, sag, you name it.

This is an instance where theory breaks down. It may seem like it would be the best place, but in reality other factors influence the ability of the wastegate to vent in that location. A properly angled and well flowing tube off of the collector (ie exhuast manifold) will always be the most effective place for a single wastegate.

Now take this for what it is, someone elses opinion that just happens to agree with my opinion yet I am not saying it is right or wrong. It would be great if we could setup a dyno session on a car that could monitor all aspects if not just for fun.

I think external wastegates and open dump pipes are cool.

But I would not drill a cast manifold to add one, I would sell the mani and put the money into a manifold with provisions for ewg.

Or I would stick with iwg, because ease of use. I have noticed in my readings that a lot of boost flutuations are caused by vac or exhaust leaks, or other things like that.

I am a non turboed noob though. So ymmv.

On a different note, that all v band turbo setup is sweet.

:facepalm: He was posting the picture to show that an external wastegate in that location will fit in the engine bay and there will be plenty of room for fitting a pipe to the downpipe. He never said vbands are ----.

Yes I realized that after the fact and rereading that part yet never failed to apologize so on that note I publicly apologize Tim ;).

Thanks for pointing that out. ;)

No problem, we cool.

I can see this having some merit in theory actually, thanks for the research and post. I prefer actual first hand account and/or data showing it instead of adding to internet rumor (a.k.a. gospel), but I'm sure that's difficult to find as these turbine housings aren't exactly common at shops that have the tools to measure the effect. When I first read your initial posts it seemed like you or your F1 tuner friend had first hand experience with that EWG location based off how strongly you were opposed to that idea.

Thanks Tim I appreciate that ;).

Once again what I typed and meant left alot to be desired as to my true intent so my apology to everyone for that.

Yes in theory it makes sense but as we all know theory holds no merit to real world data. I am uncertain if my friend has first hand experience with them but I am almost certain he is atleast familiar with them in some aspect. I am not really opposed to them as they may be fine for certain app's, my concern is simply based upon the concept of what an EWG's main purpose is but then again IWG's debunk this criteria.

What I was shooting for was the concern of 'overspeed' of said turbine 'life' and the way I see it is that this concern is eliminated with exhaust/boost pressure being regulated prior to the turbo. Then again this is simply just my personal opinion with no solid data to back it up.

I am by no means a turbo guru in any sense of the word I just know what has worked with great success and is still the standard fashion/application.