Guidance before I start ordering parts
 

I've been lurking long enough, and it's time I picked a direction.

I need to decide what route I'm going to take to get my car boosted. I have a six phase plan (will post Excel sheet later) that basically starts with management, then works through drivetrain, plumbing, and finally attaching the snail at the end. The added bonus of the planning is that my car should never be down more than a weekend if I do everything in the right order.

My problem is deciding how serious to go, and whether or not this should be dictated by what is available for sale. Should I just be hard headed and pick my dream set up and head off in that direction? I worry that I'll find myself near the finish line lacking some part that I can only find for $500.



GOALS: Start off with wastegate boost and turn it up as the car and myself get adjusted. I don't see myself getting much over 220hp.

CAR: 1992 with 100K mile replacement 1.6L. Good compression, all the valves looked great, runs strong. Stock exhaust is crap, everything else solid. Mods are in sig line, but include beefing up cooling system and a 6 puck to prepare for more power. I have a MS (Braineack build) and LC-1 on the way. 460cc injectors soon to follow.

PREFERENCES: I'm going the total sleeper route. Recirc BOV, big but quiet exhaust.

ABILITY: I don't mind routing intercooler piping, some wiring, or swapping bolt ons. Honestly the three parts that worry me the most are the manifold, downpipe, and the elbow into the intake. Basically anything that almost has to be custom, and welded. I'm not much of a welder, but can practice in the mean time at work. Also any welding I do will be on company time.



I'm almost convinced I need to build my own manifold...almost. I'm still looking for proven combos, but all are either too expensive, or the used setup isn't confidence inspiring (really, who can't go out to the garage and take decent pics of the setup).

Right now I'm considering doing exactly what I didn't want to do: Just order the turbo and build around it. I think the used stock MSM turbo at Begi may just fit my needs.


What thinketh ye?


EDIT: The part ya'll hate to hear...

BUDGET: I have about $1500 left, and still need everything, hotside and coldside, connected to the turbo. Manifold to exhaust tip, compressor to intake.

Differential?

oh yeah, that too. Should have just waited until I can get home and attach the big friggin list.

Meh, IMO the diff can wait. I've put about 10k boosted miles on mine with no problems. Im at 12psi now. It can last a long time if you drive it right. That said, when I do find a good deal on a 7" diff I will jump on it.
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Yeah, Action Auto has cornered the market for Miata jy parts here in Houston, but their prices are pretty fair. If I interpreted the accent right I can get a 7" close to home for $475. It is probably the last piece of the puzzle though.


As far as turbo packages go, I am considering that 14yr old IHI kit on the BEGi site. I almost feel better about it than ca18det(I mean brian@anythingmazda)'s $1600 Greddy set-up. Brian's does include exhaust and a bigger IC though.

I'm not too worried about exhaust after the downpipe as I have the car registered in a non-smog county (read cat cover over straight pipe mod) and there is a great cheap exhaust shop right around the corner.

Do you have a house? Motivated to learn? Want to learn? Can you weld at all? ~ how many hours of welding you got under your belt? What kind of welding?

You can do a complete DIY turbo setup if you wanted too. Get a used stick welder or MIG/flux core and there you go. For like 300-400 bucks you could build the manifold/downpipe/exhaust and IC pipes.

Upgrade the brakes before you kill yourself along with half the stray animals, squirrels, and deer in Texas.

I killed 2 of them within 4 years at stock 1.6 power at 5000ft elevation. It needs to be done, especially with a 6 puck.

Oh yeah fuck a 6 puck, get a real clutch. FM has one for 400 that looks badass. Level 2 clutch.

Yeah, I read some of your posts after ordering this POS.

I was rushed as the stock one is slipping under stock power. I didn't want to throw too much money at it during the motor swap. Now I regret it as the motor runs great (I mean great) and I could have easily had at the water pump, timing belt, and clutch.

My stock differential lasted 4 years at up to 10 psi and gave me plenty of warning that it was on it's last leg. I had a Torsen set-up waiting to drop right in. It's a crap shoot though, like in Ben's case.

I've considered carrying around an extra 6in to just swap roadside if I ever blow it. Cheap solution, but a lot of dead weight.

As far as turbos go I would like to see quick spool and stronger midrange. I'm thinking the GT2554 is for me, but can't afford a new one. Finding a good used turbo is almost like trying to figure out which girl at the party will lay you but is clean.

I'm not opposed to rebuilding, but am unsure where the line is on shaft play that means a rebuild alone won't fix it.

Sell the puck crap and get a real one. I would. The price difference will be less than a transmission. :)

You've got a point.

Since I bought the thing I've now added a six speed to my list. I'm sure if I get a real disc from ACT both the tranny and my left leg would appreciate it.

It was the cheapest thing that would do the job though.

a friend blew up a trans...again last night. He has an organic disc, lol.

If you put a stock disk with that PP, it will be like stock. Puck clutches have a pussy-light PP and a sticky disk so it looks good on paper. I've got the ACT extreme and it's badass. Pedal is kinda heavy, but so what? Couple weeks after I installed it and now I don't notice. It's exactly like a GT mustang if you've ever drove one. Heavy, but it feels good and engages well.

Stage 1
 

In the spreadsheets RED is pending, ORANGE is ordered, YELLOW is in hand, and GREEN is installed. So GREEN=SEX.

I'm including prices for posterity. That way newbs that actually search can get an idea. Left column is low seen in shopping, middle is high, far right is what I went (or plan on going) with.


Attachment 208933


This is the first part of turbo prep, which should be completed in the next few weeks. I had put on the radiator and aluminum top panel previously as the car had always had overheating problems, which probably contributed to my lil' bro blowing the motor.

I imagine the head gasket went, and all the oil went through the combustion chambers until it just locked. I am wondering if I can rebuild that head, though surely it will need new cams and HLAs.

I will probably way to do COPs until I get into higher boost, and don't want to play with too many variables at the same time when installing MS.

Stage 2
 

Attachment 208932


This part is pretty simple. The stock clutch was slipping as-is, and even if it had been in good shape, I hope to see over 200ft-lb, so needed a clutch with more bite, and will need a stouter rear end.

The rear end may wait until higher boost, more money, or failure. The clutch may be on ebay soon if I can swing for a real one from ACT. This was simply the cheapest thing that will handle the power, and I don't see my SO spending too much time in the passenger seat.

EDIT: I'm not sure what's going on with the sizing of the pics, just hang with me here.

Attachment 208931


This is the part that worries me the most.

And it can get expensive really fast. I actually haven't updated all these prices since looking at all the nice BEGi stuff. Putting good numbers here may make the call between ordering bolt-on parts and fabbing my own.

Let's just say I bought welding gloves today.

Attachment 208930


To me this will be the most fun part. Ran mills and swing lathes long enough to not worry about tapping the pan. I'm hoping to do a headlight mod to make hotside plumbing easier. To me this is where things really start shaping up. Maybe I've read too much SCC.

Attachment 208929


If the last part was fun, making it functional will ROCK!

I worry about getting all the right fittings for recirc, idle air bypass, and welding external wastegate piping.

The WG I'm looking at is from SSAutoChrome I think. If I wasn't a lazy bastard I would have put links and pictures in here too.

Attachment 208928


This will be the day that will be like the first time I put an Edelbrock carburetor on that 390 Y block that powered the beast of a '65 Tbird I drove in high school. My buddies and I actually took our hats off after we set it on. This will be the crowning achievement.

Hopefully at this point all I have to do it hook the snail up and tune. I would have already installed the IC, which will just serve as the best cold air intake ever put on an NA car.

I'm still not sure which turbo I'm getting, or from where. Still never got an answer about the MSM IHI unit capabilities, and Corky was on the other line when I called.


Also noted are the total prices. All but the minimum one make ordering a BEGi kit look like a really friggin' good idea. I'm hoping to save some money welding if I go completely DIY, but right now any form of kit or coupled parts looks appealing.


Let me know what I'm missing and what you think.

-Damon :)

Seriously, is there a brakes upgrade in your build?

If you do some more searching around here for each of those parts, you'll find some of them can be had cheaper than you list.

For example, PerformancePedeler.com has the best prices on exhaust stuff in the world. That Magnaflow is like 90 bucks from them.

Check out homemadeturbo.com's sponsor section. EvansPerformance has some good prices on cheap ebay-ish stuff. I bought several things from him (see my review in his sub-forum) and it's all working great. Including a 70 shipped wastegate that looks just like a tial, and so far, works great.

Intercoolers are like 120 shipped on ebay all day long. 18x12x3 core.

For piping, get an ebay kit or do what I did and buy 2.5" mandrel bends builders kit from RacingSolutions.com. Then you can cut/weld up your own pipes and have minimal couplers/less failure points. Can get silicone from evansperformance or siliconintakes.com,etc.

Oil shit cost me ~100. But it's the best.

Yeah, it's not on the list, I consider that part of my suspension upgrade that I was posting on m.net about.

I'm waiting to hear back from a guy I'm haggling with.

If I was to include everything, I'm also putting in a new alternator, shocks, bumpstops, and looking at making my own mounts. Also replacing a few studs and lugnuts, removing the crappily installed stereo, and getting a friend to re-upholster the seats.

I understand your concern though.

Thanks for the pointers Pat.

This is why I should have started a Planning thread earlier...

but I've certainly learned a lot in the meantime.

even with the BOV recirc'd, it will still be loud and ricers in Cadavaliers will still want to race you.

Is there any way to make it vewy vewy quiet? Like hunting Bugs Bunny fuckin quiet?

Having ricers (or cops) know I'm boosted is the last thing I want.

And I want to smoke every unsuspecting Mustang GT and G35 I come across.

EDIT:

I started watching vids to get an idea and most of the Subi recircs are loud. So I'm thinking "damn, might as well just get a loud as fuck VTA." Then I found one of Scott's vids, and his was freakishly quiet. I've got to hear one in person, and figure out how to get it quiet. I wonder if a silicone vs metal crossover tube is the trick.

I'm the same way. 100% sleeper. My care is pretty damn quiet right now, cept for the intake and BOV. The intake is gonna get changed and wrapped in foam to muffle it. The BOV... I'm not 100% sure what I'm gonna do yet. But I'm gonna do something.

stock 1g dsm bov crushed?
take a socket and put it on the top of the bov and put it in a press just to crush the top down a bit and put more pressure on the spring, my old dsm was on 15lbs of boost with a 16g and you could barely hear the bov from in the car and you definitely would not be able to hear it form inside a car next to me. not to mention they are dirt cheap.

DO A MOTHERFUCKING SEARCH YOU STUPID NOOOOBBBBBBB












Look for a used BEGi manifold/DP. They pop up every so often and you really want to have a firm base for your setup. DIY stuff is cool, but it will never be as reliable as a cast manifold will be. Oil and water lines can be done pretty cheap if you don't get fancy (use two 90s and a pre-made -4AN line with the pop-rivet oil restrictor trick). SS is nice, but unnecessary for everything except the oil feed. I track the shit out of my car and I have rubber coolant lines and a silicone drain. (although the coolant lines are getting changed soon.) The 90 bend into the turbo isn't a big deal at all, I think I just bought a bend and a filter. You could also just jam the filter on the turbo to start out.

The 2560 is a nice turbo but pricey. Any SR20 T25 is also a nice turbo, but much less pricey. Scour the SR20 forums; any Nissan flanged turbo will fit. Stay away from the DSM turbos, they have a small hotside and funky flanges.

For a $1500 budget, if you already have a clutch, wideband, ECU, and injectors, it's tough. Not only do you want to spend a sizeable chunk on a good manifold and DP, but you still have to deal with your weak-ass diff. Keep your stock exhaust and forego the intercooler to start out, and deal with the diff. Get an open 1.8 diff and then buy a used 2.5" exhaust, then the IC, and then look into an Rx7 diff.

hmm, yeah, search...will try that

In three months of scouring 4 forums I've seen zero BEGi cast manifolds come up for sale for a 1.6L. I know their shit is ideal, which is why I keep saying "damn I'd like to buy some BEGi parts" and why I started a WTB looking for a mani/dp combo.

If you know someone that has one, please send them my way.

The bend I worry about isn't into the turbo, but the inlet to intake manifold (learn to read noob). I've seen Joe's try at brazing, and know that's not the route. That will be one of the easier pieces to weld though, and I'm sure I can handle that.

Your prob right on welding my own mani/dp though. It would be hard for me to do, and the results would be deplorable.

You can buy a 2.5" 90* silicone bend that will clamp right on the throttle body. Cheap and easy. Again, less worrying and more searching. You've done some of your homework. The rest of your answers will be found if you keep looking. Go through people's build threads. Great way to see what others are doing.

Yeah, I love the build threads, just wish there were more of them...

Thanks again for the pointers.

Plan looks okay though?

I was VTA since installing my turbo 6 years ago. I just installed my recirculating BOV last weekend.

Day and night. Smoother idle, no stalling issues, much quieter even if it isn't stealthy silent.

BTW, you got mail.

If I had to do it again, I'd do EVERYTHING before turbo. It's just easier to learn your car and setup PRIOR to having 250 rwhp. Just a quick order list but here I go:

1. All things suspension (includes roll bar)
2. Brakes
3. Megasquirt (pause- get MS running well)
4. Diff (Torsen, RX7)
5. Gauges
6. Possible Catback 3" here so DP will bolt right up.
7. Fuel
8. Radiator
9. Base Kit (BEGI-S or similiar with larger turbo so you do not need to replace it in the future)
10. Finish Exhaust (If you have a one off dp or did the catback option)
11. Intercooler and Piping
12. Turn up boost

That's great advice, and the sentiment has been running through my head since I started this thread.

While I'm already taking care of 3, 7 & 8 pretty well, I'm only planning bandaids or cheapest-semi-decent for 1, 2, 4 & 6.

For the money I've been hoarding (basically by not eating and showing up at 6am to work over the break) for the turbo build, I can get a badass suspension and brake setup.

I just know I'll be dying for more power though. The MS may cure some of this by taking off the AFM and fine tuning the base map, but boost is just so damn sexy.

There is always summer though, and what's left from my internship pay after paying tuition will surely buy a base kit.

Ah yeah. You're going full replacement EMS.

I've noticed a huge difference between VTA and recirc loudness. People told me they could hear my Bailey VTA around the corner, a block away, at 12 psi.

Which allows you more time to learn how to drive the car before applying the power. No sense in having a great turbo car with a band aid shit suspension and no brakes. Besides, you sound young. Money will come.

I did brakes, suspension, engine rebuild (on engine #1), and timing band-aids before the turbo install. I probably should have taken some track courses at that time to really learn how to drive.

Honestly though, the handling and stopping characteristics changed so much with the extra power that I had to relearn how to drive my own car. All the upgrades did was keep me from killing myself once the turbo was installed. I couldn't imagine trying to stop a 200 hp miata on stock 1.6 brakes, or trying to negotiate Ortega Canyon on a stock suspension. I suppose it would have been an easier transition if I had professional training.

I'd get a MS going first. It makes such a nice difference. Plus the sooner you get it, the sooner you'll learn it and become familiar with everything about tuning.

I didn't do suspension or a roll bar. I did get some brake pads, but that's it for brakes. Or a LSD. Or any gauges. Or a radiator. I will say the car NEEDS an LSD. But I'm not sure it needs any of the other things.

I'd say a 1.6 needs a brake upgrade. An upgrade to a 1.8 set-up seems to work fine.

Best advice in this thread. You will have more fun with a bitchin' suspension, wide tires, and good brakes than you will with 200whp and stock everything else. I took that path (upgraded EVERYTHING, and then installed the turbo+MS+exhaust together) and I don't regret it for a second.

i autocrossed for a full season with a good suspension, rollbar, Rcomps, brake bias controller, and a torsen. I had tons of fun and was REAL competitive. I still dont have boost (waiting till that white shit goes away) but I am glad i did all the other small stuff before i threw a turbo on there.

I drove my 240sx with about 240 rwhp on stock suspension and shitty tires for months... waste of time.

atleast do nice springs/struts and get some decent tires on there. miatas may be slow, but they are still fun.

LC-1 just got here while I was in class!

MS should be here next week, and will install.

Rounding up the last of my suspension parts, just have to talk SO into some $500 shocks.

Have a few leads on big brake upgrades, but all are expensive (overpriced) even if I wasn't counting pennies for a turbo build. At the least I will buy some Greenstuff pads and put new rotors on, as well as caliper rebuild.

I went and looked at someone's DIY setup this weekend for sale. Talk about an eye opener! This guy took the stock 1.6L mani, got a muffler shop to weld piping to a poorly cut plate steel flange, and put the Saab 9000 AiResearch T3 (with shaft play) on it, with the outlet flange welded to the turbine housing.

The wastegate actuator is welded open? When I asked him about this he said it helped as the thing used to run at 14psi, and he dropped it to about 10. When I asked about symptoms of insufficient airflow at higher rpms for this level of boost he seemed to know what I was talking about. Remember, this whole conversation is in Espanol.

He apparently spray painted the WHOLE assembly silver, including compressor blades. I guess this was a dress-up attempt for sale. I only went out there because he had an intercooler and piping as well, with a cheapy BOV. But even I couldn't bring myself to buy this:

Attachment 208816

Attachment 208817

Attachment 208818

Attachment 208819




MORAL OF THE STORY:

1. I quickly realized what kind of crap is out there. I was lucky here as this was craigslist, and I could go see it. But the pics he had taken looked halfway decent, and I could have easily lost money over the internet.

2. There are so many parts missing, or in need of replacement with many hobbled together second-hand setups. I humored myself by trying to find a rebuild kit and guessing what I would need in the way of feed lines and such. No fun.

3. The complete kits from BEGi, FM and such are looking better every day.


I talked to Stephanie at BEGi today and she said they should have pricing up for their bare bones kits this week. These would include just manifold, turbo and downpipe.

I also asked her about the old 4.1 setup they have for sale -cheap- and am really leaning towards it as it would be complete and plug-n-play. I would be on my way there right now if I didn't want to at least wait and see how much the DIYer kit is goin to run.

These older kits used an IHI turbo, I'm guessing it's an RHF5 but haven't been able to confirm with either Corky or Stephanie yet. The person I did talk to this afternoon said it was somewhere between the 2554 and 2560 in terms of boost characteristics, which is reassuring. I had assumed it would be a little puppy, but would like to see quick spool anyway.

Does anyone have experience with these kits?

If so, how did you like it, what would you have done differently?

Ok, I talked to Stephanie again today, and it is an RHB5 turbo. Did some research, and judging by the compressor flow map I should be pretty happy with it.

She also said the downpipe should bolt up to any stock sized flange, so I'm considering their 2.5" exhaust to complement the setup.

Still would like to know if anyone ever ran this kit (BEGi IV or 4.1), and how they liked it.

I plan on driving down to BEGi tomorrow to pick up this used 4.1 kit.

It seems like my best affordable bet to have a daily driver turbo sometime this year.

I know it's old, but I wouldn't mind rebuilding the turbo if it came to that.

Anyone have any objections or opinions that should make me feel otherwise?

No idea. If it's old begi stuff, it's quality stuff. Just make sure it's not an everdying... I mean aerodyne turbo. You can upgrade stuff bit by bit.

That is reason #1 I want this kit even though it's almost as old as my car. I have heard nothing but great things about BEGi, and found out this week that Corky Bell is also a BSME grad from Texas A&M WHOOP!

Let's just say I've got nothing but respect for him, and will probably ask him to autograph his book while I'm down there.

I found the following regarding the RHB5 while digging around on m.net:

Sounds like this will be perfect for my goals.

Whats with all the stage 1,2,3 etc stuff? Gave me a headache BIGTIME. lol

Here's how I planned my build. First and foremost read, read, read. Asking questions or poking for advice is good, but your better off reading the old threads, on here and m.net. Almost everyone on here has a different opinion on what is what. Digging up old threads sometimes shows actual development through a build, what went wrong, what went right, etc.

Also another big tip of advice.....don't rush! You cant rush good things, they take time. If your in a hurry for boost and want to have fun, find a used Greddy kit and slap that sucker on. I did just that years ago and it was plenty fun for years. If you try to rush you'll either skimp and get cheapy garbage, put yourself in debt, get only half of what you need, or all 3. lol

The way I usually do things is with pen and paper. Fuck tooling around with speadsheets and such, more time wasted you could spend on learning. Take a picture of the engine bay and load it on your computer. Sit back and look at it, then think;

-Ok, manifold goes here. That means gasket, hardware, and manifold.
-Now, depending on the manifold, what turbo can I use. Then work your way to the rear bumper. Downpipe, cat/testpipe, and exhaust. Making sure of course that everything will either bolt up, or that you know ahead of time that shit will need to be fabbed or hacked, depending on your skillz.
-Then the intake path is next, will you be keeping the AFM or will you delete it. That determines how much room you have to play with as far as the air filter, piping, and heat shielding. Then you can order accordingly instead of guessing.
-Now you need to get over to the throttle body, this is a big step. First, how big of an IC and will it fit. Now your piping, how big, how will you route it, where will you place the BOV and the IAT, finally what size couplers and clamps do you need and how many. Also take the time to think of how you will mount the IC.

Now that the intake route and exhaust route is planned, start on fueling and so on. This is just an example of how I work, maybe it doesn't work that way for others. But I have found that its easy to go online and say ok....mani/turbo/dp ordered....but now you have 43 other things to get that you might have left out. Shit can add up real quick, so be careful where you start buying parts. No point in having a $400 manifold if you don't have the cash for a turbo. No point in buying bigger injectors if you cant finish getting the turbo stuff together.

I also agree 100% that there's NO point in slapping on a turbo if you don't have things like suspension and brakes taken care of. Good luck man, just plan carefully and DONT RUSH IT! :bigtu:

Vash-

Thanks for the advice Vash, I really wish I had your patience.

I got home two hours ago after driving down to BEGi. Nearly a 10hr trip overall, but a great experience. Nicest people you'll ever meet, and really took care of me.

I picked up a used BEGi 4.1 system with the IHI (baby) turbo. Since it has already been installed on another 1.6L I'm anticipating a pretty easy hardware install.

I am going to get MS up and running first...as well as installing the RX7 460cc injectors.

I will take pics of the BEGi kit next week when I get back into town, and start a build thread. I just laid everything out in the garage to orientate and figure out what I may (or may not) need.

I am really looking forward to getting started, especially after walking around Corky's shop for a couple of hours. They really had some neat vehicles there, including his motorcycle lift trailer.

The one that impressed me the most was an NA from a customer in Hawaii that they are stuffing a twin turbo VQ into. It just looked like it belonged there, even though it's one of the craziest motor swaps I've ever heard of for a Miata. I do like that motor though (have it's cousin in the Xterra), and I think someone is going to tear up some serious mountain roads on a Pacific island later this year.

Also saw the NC turbo prototype. Let's just say I can't wait to graduate.

Best part was shootin' the shit with Corky. He recounted his days at A&M (where I now study) and his attempt to get into professional racing. I could have hung out all afternoon if I didn't have to get back and do some homework tonight.

The kit is in really great shape, and is better than anything I could have hoped of getting off of craigslist or ebay, and probably the forums. They included all new silicone, fasteners, vacuum hose and fittings to make sure it was dependable.

I was really surprised not only with the product, but with the customer service. To see that BEGi will still stand behind their products even after a decade was impressive.

The kit itself is pretty impressive for an early 1.6L kit. It has a true seperated gases downpipe, a nice sturdy manifold, and high quality intercooler piping. The recirc valve still looks brand new, and the turbo has basically zero shaft play.

Corky himself welded my WBO2 bung on, and tapped the intake manifold elbow for my IAT sensor.

I would like to go on about the experience (and the nice roads out there), but I am exhausted.

I would definitely do business with them again. Actually, I will be disappointed if I don't get to do business with them again in the not too distant future.

+1 for BEGI

Damon