Intercooler upgrade started - photos
 

Took a half day off Friday and worked on the intercooler upgrade to address serious air intake temp rise under boost. New cooler measures double the existing unit- old core= 3x6x17, new core= 3x12x18 ($140 - ETDracing - ebay). It's the same "chinacooler" that most are using- same size that some are upgrading too.

Mounted it in the same base location, letting the additional surface area extend upward - taking up the space previously occupied by the oil cooler. That still leaves a good 6" of radiator exposed for direct exposure to airflow. That also means if I need a larger IC in the future, I can probably go about 6" inches taller (lower).

This mounting also allows me to keep the modded mouth piece. But it did leave me searching for a new location on the oil cooler- governed by the existing cooler lines (didn't want to shorten them). Wound up using the cross frame as mount, and cutting out the bumper support on the bottom to increase exposure. Oil cooler is ~2" off the face of the IC (though the photo doesn't look like it) with the connectors at the face of the frame cross brace. This will take advantage of the air flow that runs between the bumper support and front cross frame/brace.

I'll cover up the entire top near the rad support, so all the air will be forced through the heat exchanger "sandwich". I'm hoping that this will actually show improved oil cooling over the previous location. If it does, then I'll shorten the lines and get them up in the bumper support. Just need to makes some adjustments to both IC pipes (no mandrel bends in the garage :vash: ) and I can put it back together. -rob

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC03.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC01.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC02.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC04.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC05.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...r/airentry.jpg

big. nice. i wonder what my on-boost temps are now that I have normal readings. I'd hate to have to upgrade so soon...

by the way, how the F do you fit the stock air diverter behind the bumper?

so curious on your results...that's the puppy I want to slap in there....it will only take shortening one pipe and making a new bracket...that's about it.

y8s- I thought your IC was big- at least it looked like in the pics. VanMSM is running a BEGI MSM upgraded IC and his max rise is like 10c at 10psi. That's acceptable IMO, though not ideal. I mentioned Stripes' rise in that thread, which was only like ~4c. And my buddy with the IC that comes with the AVO kit sees similar. That's more like "ideal".

It mounts there stock - to some tabs on that the cross frame. Then there's that gap in front of the frame, behind the actually bumpers support. I think that's what you're asking...? :dunno:

That's the appeal- it is a very easy upgrade. And if temp rise is over 5c on a boosted run, then I'm sure you'll benefit.

I've only logged a ~11C increase so far. nothing horrible, but a little help doesn't hurt.

wanna sell your old ic...if you do pm me with a price :D

3.0 x 7.6 x 18. just a little bigger than your "little" one.

The little one was claimed to be a spearco core, but I have no idea what that means in terms of performance, or how it compares to the BEGI core. The core looks identical that of the chinacharger.

Slidin' - pm'd!

Nice! After a failed install on a 3x12x24 core, I'll be trying an intercooler like this one soon. I'm glad to see it fits with your A/C stuff, I must keep mine.

More pics please.

Rob, did you have to relocate your A/C stuff?
Would that big FMIC fit if you had the stock hood latch still?

dryer is still in place, will work with hood latch just not as high up....it's the same intercooler as FM, or mine for that matter, just wider...but it's not centered so it fit without having the relocate a/c stuffs.

more pics
 

The a/c stuff is all there. Requires careful bending of the a/c lines and a new bracket for the drier. As stated, this would definitely work with the hood latch if it was dropped down. The base of my rad is probably 1-2" above the bottom of the subframe. And there's probably 6" to the base of the big IC as installed. So you've got that much to work with. I figured the more direct exposure my rad got, the better.

Here's some more pics, that should give an idea on position and space. Looking straight up, you can see there's still a large about of open space in front of the 3" thick cooler. I will have to cut back some of the bumper skin on the top side of the mouth to get max exposure to the oil cooler- but it won't be visible from a normal view point.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC10.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC09.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC08.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC07.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...upcar/IC06.jpg

you can mount that bitch so high without the latch in the way.

Looking good. Interesting IC mounting brackets. I never thought of screwing them into the IC. I'm looking forward to seeing your AITs with this new intercooler.

I'd considered modifying the latch- but put that on the backburner just to get the car on the ground. Hood pins = easy. :D

I had the other IC supported with the bottom plate and didn't see any issues after being there for 1000 miles, so I figured it would be ok doing the same up top. I've got some of the rubber weather stripping between the cooler and the condenser to reduce shock/rubbing between the two.

progress = shrouding
 

Got lucky. My cold side pipe was long enough to make the span from TB to IC. So no fab work. I chopped the hotside pipe and added a straight coupler. But the hard work came about in the form of shrouding. The new IC has lower inlet/outlet so that meant adjust the shrouding. I used the touted black plastic (from BSR Products). Pics below show how it works. Templates are made with cardboard then traced over to the plastic and cut with a utility knife or tin snips. I did the bending w/o any heat, just folding by hand. The pop rivet in place. I used the air riveter for the first time- definitely a must have tool for this kind of stuff. - rob

man I would love to see your car in person... kinda funny that I yet to see your car at any mazda or miata meet.

First datalog shows that the bigger intercooler cut air temp rise in about half. Previously on a 2k-7k run I was seeing a 20c+ rise in air temp, where I'm now seeing ~10c. I'm still stumped as to how/why others here are seeing half that rise. :confused:

As suspected the coolant temp rise happens much quicker now when coming to stop at a light - but the big fan still manages the job. My next step MAY be cutting an exit through the hood for air similar to Ben's. :naughty:

wildfire- the car will be at road atlanta this weekend. Haven't ever been to an organized miata/mazda meets.

Rob, since you'll be around the corner from me anyway, you are welcome to borrow/test/run/experiment with my blue "vented" hood.

Good to see the new IC was worth the trouble. Also good to see that twice the IC resulted in half the temp increase. Think there's some math in there? Also keep in mind your pulls are done in 100F ambient, that's going to skew results some.

Ben

I may try and make up to Road Atlanta.. what days or both??

got any pics with the bumper on, taken from the front?

You were seeing a 30°C rise? I barely see a 10°F rise. 27x6 core. Mabye a longer core does do something for intake temps.

Yes - the ambient was higher on this most recent datalog at 33c vs. the previous at 28c. Some factors that might contribute to the rise:
a/c condenser installed
super thick radiator (double 1" core)
larger (t4) compressor
larger displacement engine
less free space in the engine bay
:dunno:
I'm thinking that some of that stuff is creating a greater resistance for air to flow through the intercooler. And that's why I'm considering "hole in the hood". I'd be curious to see the air temp prior to the cooler too.

Koto- I don't have a pic of the front with the bumper cover on. I installed the cooler as-is to see if the position made a change in the oil temps first. The right angle fittings I had on it are epoxied in place so that forces the lines down a bit and makes the visible from the front- along with the fact that the -10 lines are too long for the current position and the slack shows up front. The cooler is NOT visible unless you put your head below the top of the mouth. I think that the lines could be hidden- the biggest issue would be where they exit the mouth on the pax side. At this point I'm think the cooler just isn't big enough, so I'll probably look for one twice as wide (current cooler is tiny #B7B) and then adjust the lines/fittings.

Rd Atl - practice/qualifying on Sat, race is first thing Sun. am. ITA 63 Miata.

Also what may help your temps would be a scoop for the rad.. kinda like the begi scoop....

http://bellengineering.net/Images/1....r_inst3_Sm.jpg

this way you can get some fresh air to your rad....i would still try the hood scoop also

well... cya at Road tomorrow

from inter to oil cooler
 

I'm ranking the new oil cooler location a dismal failure. I thought there was some high pressure there, but apparently not. Oil temps are now 30f higher than the previously location - in front of the condenser, above the lil' intercooler. Cruising at 4k rpm I now see 270f oil temps (that used to be the peak for successive boosting). Not sure what to do next- but I think I need a bigger oil cooler. This might require staring at the front of the car for a bit and look for some open space... Any bright ideas? :cool:

Not so big on the scooper idea- besides ugly, it doesn't work well with the lip spoiler. Miata will be there Sun. - have too much crap to haul up Sat. - rob

mount an electric fan to oil cooler and put it wherever it fits.

The SCC "time attack" miata has the oil cooler hung in front of the pass side wheel, might work if you are willing to rework all your ducting.

I'm going to put the fan and wheel well solutions down on the list. The fan is a good idea for the traffic light stops- could run it off the rad fan relay. I have that wheel well install bookmarked, just wonder if I can get enough air to it at speed with the single spoiler duct. And if there's enough room in there for a larger cooler. What I might do is move the oil cooler down below the intercooler, in front of the radiator - BUT looking at the photo, the damn 90s may make it too tall - putting the cooler as the lowest front point. Bad idea. I considered rotating the oil cooler forward of the rad and placing it flush with the bottom of the pan/shroud and using a scoop to force air through it. The question is, where should the scoop go, top (in the mouth) or bottom (under the mouth shroud)? That would allow for a much larger oil cooler too.

btw - since it was mentioned - finally had a good race weekend. We (ITA Miata) led OVERALL most laps in the enduro, was in first overall with 2 laps to go, finished first in class, second overall. Nice to see the rwd Miata outrunning all the fwd hondas in the rain. :eek::D Props to "emerilnut" - our winning crew chief. :bigtu: - rob

a diagram for those who care
 

First image is the current mouth shroud arrangement. Second shows the oil cooler in the lower angled position with an "interior" scoop. And the second shows the oppositie - BUT now I'm think I can feed positive pressure to it from both spoiler ducts. Is this not a similar engineering approach to the BEGI "scooper"? Or will the positive pressure from the ducts just work against the air coming in to the mouth?
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...oolerideas.jpg
Ben- re: the hood - Is this something I can put hood pin holes in? or are you going to use this as a final hood with some paint?

FM put some long lines on their oil cooler, cut a hole in the REAR bumper, and mounted it there. they found some hood high pressure areas back there. maybe it was the tranny cooler...forget, its on their track dog.

What intercooler is that? Is that a Megan racing?

with diagram 2, wouldn't the air flow from the scoop be forcing air into a high air pressure zone... it looks to me like that area would not have smooth air flow and cause poor pull through the cooler... now flip the cooler and force the air to go to the back of the car would seem like it would pull better air...

now diagram 3 seem like it would work great just need to collect the air into some simple ducting to direct it at the cooler....

I still think a good placment in the wheelwell with some good ducting would work. Get some air ducting and pull some air up to it....

I will have to look, some on CR cut two holes in his front bumper for air flow... not sure if it would be your style but I will try and find the link to his car... has a vent in the upper front bumper for airflow to the rad also.


nice to meet you again

another option would be to get a serious oil to water cooler.

IC is chinacooler off eBay. Same or similar to one used by a lot here, and sold by the same group under various ebay names.

The air directly behind the spoiler is low pressure (that's what the spoiler does). So the high pressure in the mouth should move right thru the cooler. On the third image, I'm guessing the problem will be getting the air all the way over to the cooler from the spoiler ducts. It'll probably be an 80* angle from the spoiler to the cooler. It may be worth it just to build out that area with more plastic - like a housing vs. running hose. Don't want to put any holes in the bumper skin. Trying to keep things more or less stock looking. Glad u made it out to the track- too bad you couldn't see us run - BUT understand not wanting to rise at 5:30am too. :eek:

I've actually considered the oil to water cooler. I could use the stock unit and create a separate circuit for it using an exchanger and pump from a water/air intercooler. But again, I'm stuck with having to position the exchanger somewhere and then having another fluid circuit. - rob

Well if it is a low pressure...was not sure... you could mount your unit(like diagram 2) and then get a small fan and mount it to help pull more air through..

I would say that the oil to watercooler would suck... come from DSM were people remove the oil to water cooler for an oil to air cooler, I think going backwards would be weird. I know that main reason DSMer remove it was the coolent was still to warm to effective cool the oil... plus a few reported a drop in coolent temps after removing the oil to water cooler. With the miata have heating issues I would worry about getting heating issues with the oil to water.... Something to think about.

I understand the not wanting to cut holes in your bumper, you car did look really stock and I drove by it before I realized it was your car.

Bryan

BTW I had not even gone to bed by 5:30 am on sunday....lol

Absolutely I don't think the 3rd picture would work. Even if you could get the ducting direct. The air would not want to flow from the high pressure right in front of the lip across the low pressure in front of the oil cooler and in the ducting, through the oil cooler and back out to a high pressure area in front of the other radiators.

I don't like the second option because idealy you don't want to pump as much air under the car as possible, you want as little air as possible disturbing the under car flow, this will cause turbulance and for the air to slow across the bottom and cause lift.

Weel well seems best option. I feel like the first set up would work well if you had a prior set up and a V mount in addition. From what I've heard v mounts including a oil cooler are picking up popularity. They have been come to be called "Z mounts" as it were.

Yea the Z mount system seem to be on the raise now days.

Mechazawa that reminds me of the powersteering cooler on FM website. That same system may work well for oil cooler.

Another option would be the dual cooler from FM. http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...0%20%201999-05

No room for V or Z mount with engine swap. Anybody have that oil cooler in the fender well bookmarked?

#3 looks good. If there is a lack of flow, you could just shroud the area in front and to the sides of the oil cooler, this would ensure the pressure zone behind it is directly into a spot on the radiator and low pressure.

my piss poor rendering:

https://www.miataturbo.net/braineack.../oilcooler.jpg

That's probably the next logical location. I checked out the clearance between the mouth shroud base and my IC and it's not nearly as big as the diagram shows. That means I'll have to do some more cutting/plastic fab work to get anything in front of the exposed front of the rad. And also work out the IC supports. After seeing just how small the gap actually is, opening up that area might help air to rad even if there's an oil cooler in front. This should be an improvement over the original location- top of the small IC - since it's in more of a direct air flow. Tho I'm still considering a larger oil cooler at this point. One day I want to track this car and it that would make it mandatory. 2nd gen rx7 oil cooler might work better too. It's got both bungs on the same end and is longer and thicker.

After looking at your idea, I got to thinking it might make sense to build a shroud/scoop around the cooler where it is now. That should send air straight thru the cooler and back out to the intercooler/condenser/rad since it appears to be a low pressure area now (given my oil temps went up 30f).

did it
 

Love this sheet plastic...snip-snip-bend... So pulling from brain's idea and begi scooper for the rad, I fab'd up a scooper to feed air to the cooler's current position. Curious to see the results. :dunno:
before:
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...ront01-600.jpg
after:
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...G_1694-600.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...G_1697-600.jpg

that's sweet!

I was pondering some sort of ducting to reverse funnel the air from my mouth to the whole radiator/IC. To at least utilize the "clinginess" of the air to pull it up to the hidden parts of the rad.

What about brake ducting...?

pics were very helpful, thanks

What you're talking about is a big project IMO. The biggest problem with the NA is that giant support (the thing splitime cutout). If that was removed and replaced with something that came forward as far as (or into) the front bumper support, then I think building a properly designed/engineered air entry wouldn't be so difficult. I bet the efficiency would increase dramatically since the surfaces and form would be designed for the specific function. At this point I'm just looking for the simplest solution, requiring the least amount of work and time. :D

I was going to run the spoiler ducts the brakes... one day. It works- did on the NB race car.

Good innovation. I'd bet that it is going to work great, but let's see what your results are.

the question that begs to be answered - what's the impact on the heat exchanger sandwich behind it? I'll report back... next week probably.

I forget, Rob, do you have the gaps between the cores sealed up too?

hey looks good! exactly something I was trying to convey. Works even better since you didnt have to relocate.

Yes- there's some of that rubberized weatherstripping between the exchangers, tho some of it has let loose. Gaps are no bigger than 1/4". I did notice last night that the rad doesn't have near the air flow gap shown in the diagram above. The clear path is really less than an inch. I'm eventually going to cut the bottom out of the mouth piece and make it a steady decline to the base of the radiator. That should make that gap/path to the bottom of the rad about 3". That said, my cruise coolant temp has risen over 2c. Big ass rad ftw.

It was an easy project to do after the kids went to bed- and no big tools to disturb the neighbors. My kind of project these days.

While we're on the subject of venting, I think I've found some useful parts for NA owners who want to put the cooler in the fender well and don't have the benefit of the fog light bezel kit from the NB (it won't fit the NA). BSR Products (same place that sells the sheet plastic) has numerous flanged ducts. The 3" circle would work well- just need to adjust the angle after it passes thru the bumper skin. Check it:
duct section
3 inch circle duct

it worked...
 

Though not very well. Dropped the temps by about 20f after lots of driving around in and out of boost. Which puts me right around 275f - still to high. And at the price of reduced cooling to the rad, probably because 1. it's taking some of the air from the path to the rad and 2. it's creating a high pressure area at the top of the mouth after it exits the oil cooler. It also lengthened the time it takes the fan to bring the temps down and brought up my coolant around 2c when driving around at speed.

It's probably time to start another thread that's specific to the oil cooler project at this point, where I'll consider the next step.

New oil cooler thread here.

thats pretty slick man. makes me want to put scoops on my car hahaha.