Just installed a diy turbo kit!!! Questions?
 

Im new to the miata world but somewhat knowledgable in the boost world...i've done various homemade turbo kits for hondas and currently own an evo 8!!!...the setup on my 94 miata is a saab t3 turbo(pick up a while back at the junk), jgstools mani, evo 8 stock intercooler, vortec fmu, 2.5 dp, stock exhaust, and evo 8 fuel pump!!!...so far the setup is good and boost is a little slower than on my 1.8 ls integra back in the day but im fine with the setup...however there are times where boost is present but the car is not moving or possible lag from the turbo(surge)???...
my question is bipes acu unit able to fix the problem or how can you find out how much timing im running?

--i've been reading so much that i just couldnt find out how to find your timing...please help!!!

are you saying, you have boost but the car doesn't feel fast?

too things, too much fuel & too little timing advance, most likely.

the timing marks are on the crank pulley.

http://www.miata.net/garage/timingmarks_closeup.jpg

and yes the Bipes will allow you to run more base timing advance and only pull timing when in boost, so you have increased low-end torque.

Well, you need to figure out what the "problem" is before you can figure out what device/method will fix it.

You say sometimes "boost is present but the car is not moving." I guess I'll assume you mean, there's appreciable boost, but the car isn't accelerating as fast as you think it should.

Well, it could be that the Miata, with your particular setup, working properly, just doesn't accelerate as fast as another car with that setup would. Have you ever used that T3 turbo on another 1.8L engine'd car for comparison. On the 1.6L Miatas ('90-'93), even with a decent dallop of boost, the cars just don't really like to start moving until they come on cam around 3800-4000 RPM.

Another scenario would be that you're experiencing the lean running in closed loop mode before the ECU goes to open loop.

Another scenario might be your timing is way askew. You might be running too much or too little timing.

have you hooked up a wideband!!! What are you using for fuel management!!!

Brian you put that very elaglantly....I need to slow down when I respond :gay:

Does the car smooth out past 5K?

Dont Hondas have Map based ECUs and can accept boost with minor or no mods and be spot on as far as tune is concerned?

yes to the first question. no to the second.

$10 says we never see the OP again, but just in case...

YOU NEED TO TELL US MORE ABOUT YOUR SETUP!!!
Post a list of everything in your entire build and what the setting are. Include things not turbo related, like tires/brakes/suspension/clutch/etc... You don't even mention how much boost you're running.

I agree with the initial suspicion of timing... but also, do you know what a slipping clutch feels like. If you're running more than about 6psi on a T3, your stock clutch is not going to handle it. To the untrained, that can feel like "my engine revs hard, but the car doesn't pull anymore."

You need two things to tune with.
#1: Fuel pressure gauge. What is the Evo8 fuel pump rated to? What injectors are you running? Are you supplying enough fuel for the boost/power you've got dialed in? The only way to tell how much fuel you're pushing is with a gauge and through doing the math.
#2: Verify all of that with a wideband or dyno.

sorry for the late reply guys...im sure its because i have little timing or no timing adjustments...i have yet to install the fuel pump which should be done by now but im getting lazy since i just came back from vaction...i need to order the bipes acu for some ignition adjustments but the wideband readings are going crazy when going from closed to open...basically the more load the more lean it gets. As of right now im having a problem with the internal wastegate not opening correctly, so i have to do some more tweaking to get it shy of 8lbs...just to let you guys know i really havent pushed the car all to hard(full throttle) but for the couple of times(i know im asking for it) the reacts the same as i said in post 1, which bogs when more boost is prestent...the car simply doesnt move when boost reaches 10lbs+...
--I really just wanted to know if ignition timing is the main culprit to this problem...
----my setup on the other hand is a saab t3 .42/.48 internally wastegated(that has proven to be a cheap turbo for a starter kit), jgstools manifold, greddy bov, evo 8 intercooler, 2.5 dp, 12:1 vortec fmu, and 2.5 intercooler piping...let me see if i can shoot some pics tomorrow for you guys:bigtu:

What do you have to add the extra fuel??
A pump is not going to help you much...
You need an afpr or an ECU to control the fuel...

As the car is not getting any extra fuel im sure thats the problem...

He has a vortec fmu he says. I thought stock injectors were only good up to 100 psi and that would limit you to 8 psi of boost, no? If it is bogging as you transition into boost, I am almost certain you have too much or too little fuel from the FMU, probably too much. Look at your plugs/wideband and see if you are running rich or lean. Or just adjust the fuel ratio a little one way or the other and see which direction makes the problem better.

Get a WIDEBAND. You should not be attempting to do any tuning with out a wide band.

He says he using a Wideband and when boost get present it gets leaner and leaner.

First thing that comes to mind for me is 02 clamp issues.

i've added a evo 8 fuel pump since then and i was assuming that the wastegate on the saab turbo is already set to about 8psi since i have not used/adjusted the rod. the boost gauge that i had took a crap!!!...i think the culprit of my setup is the boost actually shoots up to about 15 psi, causing it to bog in the higher rpm band...

Here are some pics of my setup!!!!
Attachment 216029
Attachment 216030
the evo 8 intercooler
Attachment 216031

i also forgot the mention that the logs with the wideband through a 1-3 gears are roughly 12.8-13.1 afrs with some knock present(the rattle heat sheild noise)...i have yet to have a timing controller like the bipes or msd but i will get the mspnp ems because i plan on adding bigger injectors...but does anybody know...or maxxed out the saab t3 45 trim?...i also plan on upgrading the turbo to the t3 60 trim turbo but i feel the saab will get me to the 250 mark!!!...:)

First of all, if you don't have any timing controllers, you should really retard the overall timing to 6 deg BTDC or even lower. You risk detonating that thing.

Second, if your running at 10 psi boost, your stock fuel system will not handle that. How much fuel pressure are you running. I'm not familiar with the stock EVO fuel pump, but most OEM fuel pumps don't go beyond 90psi. You maybe running out of fuel when you bog.

Your setup looks quite nice, just get control of your fuel and timing control.

The saab might make it. I would not run past 8 psi on stock fuel system with FPR in place, if you install the evo FP wich i asssume is a 255 hp then you might get abit more headroom. As the stock pump at the age we generally see can only hit 70-75 psi at the rail. Running a IC you are gonna need to get the bipes or drop the cash for a MS. Sorry If you wish to limit boost even further to live with the motor until the bipes gets there mock up a helper spring to prelaod the WG so it opens easier. You will spool slightly slower but it will allow you to dial down boost for agood while.

Are you running the oem fuelpump??
That is limiting the max boost.

The 45psi base pressure added 36 psi boost pressure equals 81 psi...(greddy limit, stock fp) So the 8psi on a vortech is not going to work...
You need a new 190hp walbro and a calibration set for the vortech. (probably a 8:1 or 6:1) As you need 6 psi fp / psi off boost.
The 12:1 vortech is completely shutting down fuel return...

Slowly advance timing til car knocks a little, remove timing till knock stops.

Add timing controller to get low rpm power back.

I keep seeing that "fact" thrown around here. The required rise in fuel pressure is totally dependent on fuel supply/demand, i.e. injectors and power (which is not totally dependent on boost).

Maybe I misunderstood your post in the holistic sense, but 6psi fuel pressure rise per pound of boost is not a be all and end all truth. In fact, it isn't even a decent guideline. Some quick math is a much better, much safer way to figure it out.

If you're seeing an increasing lean condition during Boost, then you don't have enough fuel. What disc ratio in the Vortech are you running? What injectors are you running (stock?). If you're running a 12:1 disc in the Vortech, even on an EVO8 pump (which I suspect is stronger than a stock Miata), and stock injectors.... YOU PROBABLY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH FUEL! You need a fuel pressure gauge that you can see while driving to get a pressure reading so you can do the math and see if you've got enough fuel.
Stock injectors are good to over 130psi of fuel pressure (maybe more, Corky says injector lock is almost impossible on the inj's we run).

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a fuel filter. You need to change it.

If you'll look back to my first post, you'll see I asked about YOUR CLUTCH!!! If you are spiking to 15psi, I GUARANTEE YOUR CLUTCH IS SLIPPING!!! Do you know what a slipping clutch feels like? Boost+RPM increase+no power= possible slipping clutch! Even the 8psi you think you're running is more than enough to smoke the stock clutch.

I also see that your valve cover breather tube is just open to the air. You need to route it properly... at least put a filter on it or something.

So many people speak as if psi is an absolute. "How many psi before my head gasket blows? How many psi can I run with X? How many psi can the stock engine handle? What size fuel injector do I need for 10psi?" 10psi on a Greddy is not the same as 10psi on a T25 is not the same as 10psi on a GT35R is not the same as...and etc.

Anyway, just wanted to rant a bit.

In my experience, if the car has boost and isn't "moving", as in it's making a shit ton of noise but the RPMs won't climb, it's a lean issue.

I totally understand that with a diff turbo the fuel requiements will change, just want to point out where his problem might be... Not a guideline for tuning all turbo's...

Setting a car up just with a vortech req a lot of calculation.12:1 to much for everything above 6psi or a larger fuelpump.

Get a calibration set and a walbro and check in out...
It's a nice,cheap option to let the car run rich in boost.

This is just a whole accident waiting to happen. For one, you need to have some measure of boost (gauge). Second, you really need to retard timing if you do not have a controller. I have a MSD box for sale for like 75 shipped if you want it. Third, jesus measure some fuel. I am willing to bet your exceeding your present fuel system. You have too many variables which ultimately lead to engine failure. Fix them fast before you decide to keep driving it.

You have no boost gauge and no timing controller? Have fun blowing up your motor.

damn i missed that go buy a frigin boostgauge damn. :eek:

i mentioned that i had a faulty boost gauge...and that has already been replaced...and i have dialed in the wastegate arm...im now running 5lbs of boost which should by me some time so i can throw the money down to get some type of fuel management!!!!...the car is running great but i have yet to adjust the cas...where is the bolt that im looking for?...as far as the clutch, it was replaced with a spec stage 3 6puck sprunged clutch...basically the first thing i replaced when i bought the car!!!(3months old)...I believe a company rre(big time 4g63 guys) pressure tested the evo8 fuel pump and with good results the pump flowed close to a 190 both at 12v and 14v(is it possible to increase voltage?) http://www.roadraceengineering.com/f...pflowrates.htm the vortec fmu is a 12:1 and afrs are fluctuating between 12:8-13:1 in the upper rpms(keep in mind this is now 5lbs and with the evo 8 pump installed)...
--the car no longer bogs because i wasnt able to see how much boost i was running...so all i really need to do is tune the base timing to get rid of knock!!!
--thanks guys!!! the pics of the setup was the first day i installed my pieced up turbo kit!!!

a little off topic but the evo guys can help with the flow of the stock fuel pumps...and the evo 8 pump is a lot bigger than that of a stock miata pump!!!...i just might be upgrading to a evo 9 pump since its able to flow more...
heres the link
http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthr...fuel+pump+test
--in my opinion this is an option to those who a) dont really want to hear the noise of a walbro and B) knows a buddy or use to own an evo and has a boat load of stock parts!!!...freebies as i call it!!!:)

It's not flow, it's pressure. To run an FPR, you need a fuel pump that will support 100+psi. If a stock Evo8/9 pump will do it, great; at stock pressures, the stock Miata fuel pump will flow 350+rwhp.

Just get a PNP MS and stop dicking around with all this bandaid shit.

I would also run your oil feed line to your turbo so it isn't cable tied to your heater hoses and near your wiring harness. Stainless braid hoses are like a saw blade with all the vibration in a car and will chew through almost anything!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...pumpgraph2.jpg Rerence there chart bud at 90+ psi of FP the evo pump flows enough fuel for 0 hp the evo 9 pump can hit 150 hp at 90 psi but the walboro 255 hp supports 300+ hp at 90+ psi fuel pressures. A 190 hp can support up to 340 hp at 90+ psi. The evo pumps flow a little more than a 190 standard pressure. With out the headroom for pressure increase. This is why you are running a FPR increase the FP to make the injectors act like big injectors. Do you understand what we are screaming now, a walboro 190 hp or 255 hp is only 90-100 bucks shipped. How much does a evo pump cost?

20 bucks or free on the cost of an evo 8/9 fuel pump!!!...but i do see your point and have come across your point by other fellow miatat.net guys like brain...to sum it up...squeezing a load of fuel through small injectors to act as if you were running x size injectors. But to rely on a fpr/fmu can be fatal if the disc seizes up and wouldn't the idc be off the charts?...im not sure about the accuracy of a tune with a fmu but wouldnt running high pressures decrease the life of the fuel system as well?(pump, injectors,...etc)...i will be dropping the fmu in favor of bigger injectors/rail just because of the reliabilty of another asset added to the miata's fuel system...but i feel that the fmu is an option for me for now, since im on a budget...
--back on the topic, ampz thanks for looking out as i oversaw the oil feed line and the hose/harness...i didn't have much time cleaning up a quick/rushed install...the engine bay still remains dirty but i hope to clean all that dust!!!:bigtu:
--savington...to answer all your questions...i had a faulty boost gauge meaning the gauge was off by alot, which is replaced!!!...besides the stock wastegate on the saab should be @ 8psi wastegate pressure so i expected too much from a virgin wastegate...and to answer your question about dicking around with the bandaid shit...i will be getting pnp ms as an engine management but the funds are not just there...making power and restoring the car is a good sum of money since i didnt buy a car in such a good exterior and interior shape...i just found out i bought a 94 r model miata:bigtu:...besides guys have made respectable power with the very items like a afpr/fmu and are still using them in their current setup...