beerslurpy

I had this crappy old jpg that covered the T3 60 map (done by someone else). I didnt think it was terribly useful so I redid it to have less errors and also to show 3 common compressor maps. T3 60, T04B-S, T04E-50.

The maps are to scale via pressure multiplier. I assumed a powerband of 3000 to 8000 rpm which is what the yellow parallelogram traces out. If you like smaller compressors, this jpg isnt for you. This assumes 1.8L engine. Decrease the flow requirements for a 1.6 proportionately.

I did the following PSI:
6 psi- highest you can run without at least FPR
8 psi- highest you can run without going to ECU (IMO)
12 psi- a common pressure for stock bottom end
15 psi- another common pressure
18 psi- why not?

I assumed a 1 to 1.5 psi pressure drop before making the desired psi in the manifold. Maybe this is optimistic, I have no idea.

TheBandit

iTrader: (8)

Sweet man, Looks like my 12psi is right in the sweet spot of my 50 trim.
-Michael-

beerslurpy

Discussion:

The 60 trim is seems to run out of cfm above 6-7000 rpm beyond 12 psi. I'm not even sure what the compressor map seems to be saying about 18 psi.

The T04B is seems to be in over its head at more than 15 psi with efficiency really not that great in the upper RPMs. It is quite the torque monster from 4000 to 6000 rpms tho. Note the crappy 50 and 60 percent efficiency range in the upper RPMs at 15+ psi. Heat soak for the lose.

The T04E is a complete beast, only just arriving in its peak efficiency area at 18 psi above 6000 rpm. I think it would take some fairly high PSI and headwork to max out this compressor on a miata. Note that the compressor is above 70 percent efficiency the whole time, usually above 74. The T04B maxes out at 73.

beerslurpy

By the way, I may have gotten these numbers wrong, but I think remember going over them way back when.

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

I get way different results. T3 60 or S60 trim should not run off the map.

15psi - 10psi - 7psi

try this calculator:
http://www.turbofast.com.au/turbomap.html

Andy Floyd uses another.

1.6:
bore 3.29
stroke 3.07

beerslurpy

Hmm, the results I'm getting are similar to what I have for the most part.

2k rpm to 8k rpm, same boost numbers. Note they are a bit lower on boost because they dont assume IC loss at all. I'm a little off in some areas of flow, but mostly good. The boost rows are 6/8/12/15/18.

T04E


T360 Trim: Note that my efficiency ratings for the IC on the T3 60 are way generous but you are still way off the charts.


T04BS: note puke and die above 6k rpms, as seen in my car.

beerslurpy

Woops I copied the wrong bore and stroke numbers, but they arent off by much.

I think the disagreement is because you are using the super 60, which is IMO a much harder compressor to find than the regular 60 trim.

Oh yeah and youre using a 1.6L, of course your calculations are going to produce different results. The 60 trim might be tolerant of smaller turbos than the 1.85L.

magnamx-5

iTrader: (7)

when you scale it to your actual boost numbers to rpm the numbers ont he map for bhp seem quite low. for example i was making 60 whp an 100+ lbft at 2800 as i was laying into mine on a mustang dyno but the map shows 50 bhp is doable at 100% VE no less. i like squirle performance better http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/index.php

beerslurpy

I have no idea what the correct VE numbers are for those rpms and boost numbers, especially once you factor in exhaust restriction..

Squirrel has a circularity problem in that to pick the correct compressor you need to know the peak hp rpm- but to know the rpm of the peak, you need to know the efficiency map of the compressor you will select- making 350 hp at 6000 rpm requires 20 psi while making it at 7500 only requires 15.

Better to know your likely usage pattern based on what your setup can take and then figure out hp afterwards when you have narrowed it down to a few compressors.

y8s

iTrader: (8)

find someone with a solid tec3 map for a miata with boost and copy their VE table

here: http://www.y8spec.com/tec3maps/

F20turbo

Well Based on my personal experience the T3 60 trim and S60 on a 1.9L BP ( 1mm overbore ) the car dies off after 6k. This is revving to 7200rpm. On the 1.6L i could run 18psi on the S60 all day and it felt great right until about 7000rpm where it felt like it was beginning to stop making power. On the 1.8 @ 15psi the S60 started to feel weak above 6k and pulling to redline was pretty much useless since it was beginning to lose power...you could feel the compressor getting out of its efficiency. Now keep in mind on the 1.8L the S60 would hit 15psi @ 3300-3500rpm. Thats better boost repsonse than a GT2560R or maybe about the same...and the GT2560R begins to get marginal in about the same area in the rpms that the S60 does. So the fact that it was not building power after 6k is acceptable since its spooling so fast in the first place, and any turbo that hits that soon in the rpms will have a hard time making power all the way to redline.

F20turbo

Oh, forgot to mention VE should be 100% at anything over 4k with boost. Since a turbo increases the engines ability to draw in more the the VE is 100, or thats what I have read...who knows if im right.

magnamx-5

iTrader: (7)

i suspect you are right if figure at any point where we make 120% of our NA hp we are at 100 or more % effeciency from the numbers i have gotten it seems given a good exhaust and intake cooling 125% VE is not out of the question on the peak.

tylerdurden

If the S60 is slightly small for a 1.8L, is there a "next size up" without going to a T04 compressor? How's the GT32 compare to a T04E?

beerslurpy

A 46 trim T04E would hit 15 psi by 3000 rpm and hold it till 8000 with no efficiency problems. That plus a .48 stage one turbine side would be quite quick spooling with decent top end at 15 psi. The GT32 has the exact same surge limit and is otherwise identical, only it costs a ton more. IMO, the surge limit is a bigger limitation than the lag on most streetable turbo setups, so the benefit of ball bearing housings is often cancelled out. My biased opinion, obviously.

I am personally not to keen on the T04B compressors anymore. High surge limits with a narrow band of efficiency. Theyre a step down from the T04Es. The only benefit is they flow a bunch better than a T3 60 trim and rarely cost any more.

beerslurpy

Oh sorry you meant a bigger T3. Yeah, there is a T3 super 60 if you can find one, but that is as high as the T3 compressor goes and it isnt much better.

I dont see the point of avoiding T04 compressors, it isnt like there is a huge gap between them and the T3 in terms of behavior. The 46 trim is basically a T3 60 trim on roids- similar bottom end (T360 surge is 500 rpm lower than T04E46) but tons more up top.

kyle242gt

Man, that is an excellent summation of something I figured out first hand.... just wasn't quite able to put it into words. Had to monkey with my MSnS-E EBC just to keep the turbo from beating itself up. Nice job!

Similary, I was trying to figure out why the T04B looked like a poor choice - the narrow efficiency is exactly it.

Nice to see that the T04E seems to be the right wheel, getting the trim right just fine tunes it.

Since you maniacs have got me planning a turbo again, it sure seems like the T04E.46/T3.48 would be a sweet hookup; plus, probably inexpensive to put together. ...hmmm... I have a T3 42/48 with a chewed up compressor sitting here. Which in turn means you maniacs may bring me back to the Garrett camp as well. Where does the T04E.46 start to spool up? I'd like something that makes ~5psi by 2500, but that might be hard to get.

This has been a great thread, thanks for putting it together. Always nice to see maps plotted.

beerslurpy

Uh dude, 5 psi is a nothing amount. My crappy T04B-S makes 5 psi practically off idle. It makes 10 psi around 2500-3000 rpm.

When I'm talking low boost threshold, I mean making a full 15+ psi unless I specify otherwise. The rpms for that will be higher than the RPMs for making lower amounts, due to the shape of the surge limit. See how the 2000 rpm line crosses over the surge limit as you raise the boost? The T04E .46 makes 15 psi at around 3000 rpm- it will probably make 6 psi at 1500. The 50 trim will make 6 psi at just under 2000 rpm.

magnamx-5

iTrader: (7)

i dont think we can get any decent sized tubro to 6 psi above ambient by 2500. Heck my turbo only hits 2 psi by 2100 and 6 at 3000. to get something better you would need a teenie turbo and he fairly limited on your performance. i am not that fimiliar with garret turbos though is there something that makes them ulitimatly different from any other?

Braineack

iTrader: (62)

just a different style compressor wheel.