My intel gathering thread.
07-10-2007, 05:38 PM
#1
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My intel gathering thread.
I will be doing my own turbo install sometime in october. Hopefully once funds are in place and the weather is cooler. Right now though I am trying to gather as much information as I can so when the time comes im not sitting around scratching my head about which parts to buy. Instead I can ask much smarter questions which will pertain to an actual build.
My first question is probably a bit absurd, but I was thinking about it on the train. Has anyone ever attempted to install a TMIC on a miata? Would it work well?
How is the EGR connected to the new exhaust manifold? Begi's website mentions some sort of adapter kit.
The FAQ says the stock computer has difficulty dealing with an atmospheric BOV. Is this the same with an aftermarket ecu? I ask because the FAQ mentions that a MAP sensor doesn't have this issue. Would the MAF need to be changed for a MAP or can an after market ECU manage with a atmoshpheric bov and a MAF?
Btw, I have Corkys book on order.
My first question is probably a bit absurd, but I was thinking about it on the train. Has anyone ever attempted to install a TMIC on a miata? Would it work well?
How is the EGR connected to the new exhaust manifold? Begi's website mentions some sort of adapter kit.
The FAQ says the stock computer has difficulty dealing with an atmospheric BOV. Is this the same with an aftermarket ecu? I ask because the FAQ mentions that a MAP sensor doesn't have this issue. Would the MAF need to be changed for a MAP or can an after market ECU manage with a atmoshpheric bov and a MAF?
Btw, I have Corkys book on order.
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07-10-2007, 06:06 PM
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http://bellengineering.net/Pages/pro...ata_parts.html
Looking at the stainless manifolds. "$549.00 p/n 60402 '94 to '97, External Wastegate, w/ EGR, T25 or T28 Turbo".
Why does it require an external waste gate? What changes between this manifold and the cast that warrants it? Why dont they offer one like this but without the waste gate flange?
edit: Looking at the pictures of the engine with the stainless manifold you can see a turbo with an internal waste gate bolted up to it. How is that possible?
http://bellengineering.net/Images/1.8_Miata_S4_4.JPG
Looking at the stainless manifolds. "$549.00 p/n 60402 '94 to '97, External Wastegate, w/ EGR, T25 or T28 Turbo".
Why does it require an external waste gate? What changes between this manifold and the cast that warrants it? Why dont they offer one like this but without the waste gate flange?
edit: Looking at the pictures of the engine with the stainless manifold you can see a turbo with an internal waste gate bolted up to it. How is that possible?
http://bellengineering.net/Images/1.8_Miata_S4_4.JPG
Last edited by Saml01; 07-10-2007 at 06:48 PM.
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07-10-2007, 08:35 PM
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No reason to install a TMIC on a Miata. They're done to save space and piping on cars like the WRX. You could do it, but it would require a lot of custom work and you'd have to cut the crap out of your hood. Not worth it. Stick with an 18-20" core FMIC.
The EGR connects to the BEGI manifold with a cast bung and a 90deg fitting. Mine barely fit, and I had to bend the crap out of it to make it clear the BEGI DP. Wasn't really pleased about that.
MAF = Mass Air Flow
MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure
VTA BOVs remove air from the intake system before the intake manifold, but after the MAF. This means that air that has been measured by the MAF isn't being combusted, and the car squirts extra fuel with no accompanying air to burn it. MAP sensors measure in the manifold itself, so you can do whatever you want with the air before the throttle body, including venting a BOV to atmosphere, with no ill effects. Having owned and driven a VTA BOV car for a week now, I would recirculate it. It's just too loud to have fun with on the street without getting caught. The aftermarket ECUs that allow you to vent the BOV to atompshere bypass the stock MAF in favor of a MAP sensor. It would be difficult or impossible to tune a MAF-based standalone ECU and a VTA BOV together.
Bell's tubular manifold is EWG only because if you are considering a tubular exhaust manifold, your turbo is an EWG turbo because you are shooting for big power, 300+rwhp at least. I suppose you could run a block-off plate, but if you're going to do that just stick with their cast manifold. It's probably going to be more reliable, and it will be cheaper. If you called Corky he could probably make you a tubular setup without the EWG flange, though.
The EGR connects to the BEGI manifold with a cast bung and a 90deg fitting. Mine barely fit, and I had to bend the crap out of it to make it clear the BEGI DP. Wasn't really pleased about that.
MAF = Mass Air Flow
MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure
VTA BOVs remove air from the intake system before the intake manifold, but after the MAF. This means that air that has been measured by the MAF isn't being combusted, and the car squirts extra fuel with no accompanying air to burn it. MAP sensors measure in the manifold itself, so you can do whatever you want with the air before the throttle body, including venting a BOV to atmosphere, with no ill effects. Having owned and driven a VTA BOV car for a week now, I would recirculate it. It's just too loud to have fun with on the street without getting caught. The aftermarket ECUs that allow you to vent the BOV to atompshere bypass the stock MAF in favor of a MAP sensor. It would be difficult or impossible to tune a MAF-based standalone ECU and a VTA BOV together.
Bell's tubular manifold is EWG only because if you are considering a tubular exhaust manifold, your turbo is an EWG turbo because you are shooting for big power, 300+rwhp at least. I suppose you could run a block-off plate, but if you're going to do that just stick with their cast manifold. It's probably going to be more reliable, and it will be cheaper. If you called Corky he could probably make you a tubular setup without the EWG flange, though.
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07-10-2007, 09:12 PM
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Thanks for the explanations savington, that was very clear.
Where is the MAP sensor installed on the miata? Does it have one in conjunction to the MAF?
I guess it would be simpler and cheaper to just go with a recirculating BOV. Less wiring probably required for a MAP and simpler to setup since its been done before.
Im guessing the VTA BOV's cant be made less obnoxious?
Where is the MAP sensor installed on the miata? Does it have one in conjunction to the MAF?
I guess it would be simpler and cheaper to just go with a recirculating BOV. Less wiring probably required for a MAP and simpler to setup since its been done before.
Im guessing the VTA BOV's cant be made less obnoxious?
Last edited by Saml01; 07-10-2007 at 09:39 PM.
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07-11-2007, 01:55 PM
#7
Hey Sam, nice name.
First, fill out the rest of your profile, including where you live... never know when one of us is just around the corner. Then, fill out your sig, very basically list the specs on your car and what current mods you've got.
Now, tell us a little about what you hope to get out of this turbo. What kind of power do you want and what is the general use of the car going to be? What kind of money do you have? Are you going to do all the install yourself? Fab skillz? Tools and a place to work? Experience?
VTA is not a very big deal on MAS cars like your 1.8. It is a bigger deal on MAF (flapper door style) cars like 1.6's. Bottom line, get a decent product that doesn't leak and is adjustable for action... or if you've comfortable with your manhood and don't require VTA, just recirc. Performance-wise, there is no advantage to VTA.
I think that all the major aftermarket ECU's include an onboard MAP sensor and have no problems with VTA... but the 1.8 doesn't really have any problems either. As far as I know, there is no stock MAP sensor on the Miata. The ECU's work on airflow and IAT (I think).
Forget the TMIC route unless you want to be the first... however, I'd love to see a WRX-style hood scoop and the cold-side piping you'd need to fab. With good quality hi HP ebay IC's for $100, with a cavern in the nose to mount just about any style or shape you want, it only makes sense to go FMIC. Having A/C and P/S make the routing of the hot-side charge pipes a little challenging, but there are a few kits and numerous options. Over the rad, around the rad, under the rad, through the wheelwell, Air-Water IC, and of course, FMIC if you're so inclined. Real men ditch their power steering and air conditioning and drive it like God intended, which also conveniently makes routing all your pipes a piece of cake.
OH ya, and if you have any question about the Bell products, just call and talk to Corky himself. He'll tell you all you want/need to know and then he'll tell you some more.
-Sam
First, fill out the rest of your profile, including where you live... never know when one of us is just around the corner. Then, fill out your sig, very basically list the specs on your car and what current mods you've got.
Now, tell us a little about what you hope to get out of this turbo. What kind of power do you want and what is the general use of the car going to be? What kind of money do you have? Are you going to do all the install yourself? Fab skillz? Tools and a place to work? Experience?
VTA is not a very big deal on MAS cars like your 1.8. It is a bigger deal on MAF (flapper door style) cars like 1.6's. Bottom line, get a decent product that doesn't leak and is adjustable for action... or if you've comfortable with your manhood and don't require VTA, just recirc. Performance-wise, there is no advantage to VTA.
I think that all the major aftermarket ECU's include an onboard MAP sensor and have no problems with VTA... but the 1.8 doesn't really have any problems either. As far as I know, there is no stock MAP sensor on the Miata. The ECU's work on airflow and IAT (I think).
Forget the TMIC route unless you want to be the first... however, I'd love to see a WRX-style hood scoop and the cold-side piping you'd need to fab. With good quality hi HP ebay IC's for $100, with a cavern in the nose to mount just about any style or shape you want, it only makes sense to go FMIC. Having A/C and P/S make the routing of the hot-side charge pipes a little challenging, but there are a few kits and numerous options. Over the rad, around the rad, under the rad, through the wheelwell, Air-Water IC, and of course, FMIC if you're so inclined. Real men ditch their power steering and air conditioning and drive it like God intended, which also conveniently makes routing all your pipes a piece of cake.
OH ya, and if you have any question about the Bell products, just call and talk to Corky himself. He'll tell you all you want/need to know and then he'll tell you some more.
-Sam
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07-11-2007, 04:55 PM
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Now, tell us a little about what you hope to get out of this turbo. What kind of power do you want and what is the general use of the car going to be? What kind of money do you have? Are you going to do all the install yourself? Fab skillz? Tools and a place to work? Experience?
VTA is not a very big deal on MAS cars like your 1.8. It is a bigger deal on MAF (flapper door style) cars like 1.6's. Bottom line, get a decent product that doesn't leak and is adjustable for action... or if you've comfortable with your manhood and don't require VTA, just recirc. Performance-wise, there is no advantage to VTA.
I think that all the major aftermarket ECU's include an onboard MAP sensor and have no problems with VTA... but the 1.8 doesn't really have any problems either. As far as I know, there is no stock MAP sensor on the Miata. The ECU's work on airflow and IAT (I think).
Forget the TMIC route unless you want to be the first... however, I'd love to see a WRX-style hood scoop and the cold-side piping you'd need to fab. With good quality hi HP ebay IC's for $100, with a cavern in the nose to mount just about any style or shape you want, it only makes sense to go FMIC. Having A/C and P/S make the routing of the hot-side charge pipes a little challenging, but there are a few kits and numerous options. Over the rad, around the rad, under the rad, through the wheelwell, Air-Water IC, and of course, FMIC if you're so inclined. Real men ditch their power steering and air conditioning and drive it like God intended, which also conveniently makes routing all your pipes a piece of cake.
Does water injection still require a FMIC? Is water injection as efficient or more efficient then intercooling?
OH ya, and if you have any question about the Bell products, just call and talk to Corky himself. He'll tell you all you want/need to know and then he'll tell you some more.
-Sam
-Sam
One question I would ask him is if I can order a kit without certain parts and just have him give me a new price for the remainder.
-------------
I have a question about rising rate fuel pressure regulators. I was reading the FAQ and it mentions that the stock ECU can handle 20 - 30% larger injectors. I think that 300CC or so should be enough for 200hp maybe a bit more if it calls for it. My question is this, would I need a new ECU when a turbocharger is installed or can I get away with a FPR to provide more fuel when necessary. Let me know if I understand this correctly, an FPR increases the pressure in the rail then when the ECU triggers the injector it has the ability to provide more fuel in that instant it opens?
See I am a little confused when it comes to when I would need a new ECU and when I wouldn't, the same for an FPR. An ECU is a very large expense and if I can safely avoid it in the initial install I would like too. In the end I would like to assemble my own Megasquirt, im pretty good with a soldering iron and wouldnt mind trying it out.
Last edited by Saml01; 07-11-2007 at 05:34 PM.
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07-11-2007, 04:58 PM
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Stock ECU does not use a MAP sensor, they all use a MAF. You can get rid of the stock MAF with an emanage ultimate or a standalone (Link, AEM, TEC, Haltec, Megaquirt).
Using a VTA BOV causes a rich condition when you close the throttle. As said before, the MAF metered the air that was vented and fueled it accordingly. Some have been sucessful in using BOV such as the HKS or the Bailey's.
I haven't seen a TMIC setup. Almost everyone I've seen uses a FMIC. There are variations of the FMIC. Most route their piping underneath the radiator. I chose to run it over the radiator to minimize the piping. I believe TDC has a kit for this.
Using a VTA BOV causes a rich condition when you close the throttle. As said before, the MAF metered the air that was vented and fueled it accordingly. Some have been sucessful in using BOV such as the HKS or the Bailey's.
I haven't seen a TMIC setup. Almost everyone I've seen uses a FMIC. There are variations of the FMIC. Most route their piping underneath the radiator. I chose to run it over the radiator to minimize the piping. I believe TDC has a kit for this.
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07-11-2007, 05:05 PM
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I haven't seen a TMIC setup. Almost everyone I've seen uses a FMIC. There are variations of the FMIC. Most route their piping underneath the radiator. I chose to run it over the radiator to minimize the piping. I believe TDC has a kit for this.
Thanks.
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07-11-2007, 07:24 PM
#11
Aftermarket ECU's will use some or all of MAP Sensor, Fuel/Timing Maps, IAT Sensor, EGT Sensor depending on what ECU you purchase. The popular ones for Miata's are Link/Hydra/Megasquirt/AEM/Emanage/and a few others.
As for the radiator stuff, I was referring to how you are going to route your IC piping. The cold side from the IC to the Throttle Body is universally easy... there are several premade pieces you can buy and they're all pretty much the same. Piping from the turbo to the IC is a little trickier and there are literally a dozen ways to do it depending on your particular combination of manifold, turbo, intake piping, and IC placement. A critical aspect of what IC to buy is how you intend to route the piping. I have no AC or PS, so my routing is the easiest possible... just one pipe on the hot side... some guys end up using 2/3/4 pieces of pipe and multiple bends. Do a search through the VBgarage and check pics for examples... and do searches... lots of threads on intercooler pipe routing.
200whp is totally doable on the stock ECU. Just about any T2/T3 will get you there at about 12-13psi with an AFPR/Injectors/FuelPump/Bipes.
You are correct about increasing fuel pressure at the rail. You can do the math listed in the FAQ, but good general numbers for 200whp are: 93octane/300-330cc injectors/90-100psi fuel pressure/12-13psi boost/base timing@14* with Bipes pulling 6-8*. The Begi 2025 AFPR is widely recognized as the best. A Walbro 190lphHP is the fuel pump of choice as the stocker will only fuel to about 80psi and it's probably not capable of that after 13years.
The above setup after a few dyno pulls for fine-tuning will give you a safely flat AF curve and if the engine is has good compression will last quite a long time.
You really don't need any special fab skillz... if you can assemble Ikea furniture, you can design and install a turbo kit for this car. The major companies will sell you parts or pieces of a kit separately. A clean garage, jackstands, and basic tools (but you'll end up buying a few more probably) are all you really need if you buy quality parts.
MAF/MAS/AFM are essentially the same thing and we use them around here interchangable although it's not quite right. They're the same in that they measure air and provide a signal to the ECU in the form of a voltage that it uses to appropriately add fuel. There are two kinds in Miatas. We usually refer to the MAF/AFM when talking about the 1.6liter units that are "flapper-door style" and measure the actual volume of air flowing through the flapper that is forced opened farther as you apply a greater load to the engine. We typically call a MAS (Mass Airflow Sensor) with two individual wires inside that IN COMBINATION WITH AN IAT sensor determine air volume. Also, read up in the FAQ about closed loop and open loop... there's an O2 sensor in the exhaust that plays an important role in fueling whether the car is in open or closed loop. I think that's all right?
Water injection does not require an IC, and a few guys around here have had HUGE success with WI standalone kits... there's even a special forum for it on the main forum page. However, since overall it's really easy to install an IC in this car, at WI is arguably better used IN CONJUNCTION with an IC. The only drawback is the need to refill the bottle which most guys do when they're waiting for the gas tank to fill.
As for the radiator stuff, I was referring to how you are going to route your IC piping. The cold side from the IC to the Throttle Body is universally easy... there are several premade pieces you can buy and they're all pretty much the same. Piping from the turbo to the IC is a little trickier and there are literally a dozen ways to do it depending on your particular combination of manifold, turbo, intake piping, and IC placement. A critical aspect of what IC to buy is how you intend to route the piping. I have no AC or PS, so my routing is the easiest possible... just one pipe on the hot side... some guys end up using 2/3/4 pieces of pipe and multiple bends. Do a search through the VBgarage and check pics for examples... and do searches... lots of threads on intercooler pipe routing.
200whp is totally doable on the stock ECU. Just about any T2/T3 will get you there at about 12-13psi with an AFPR/Injectors/FuelPump/Bipes.
You are correct about increasing fuel pressure at the rail. You can do the math listed in the FAQ, but good general numbers for 200whp are: 93octane/300-330cc injectors/90-100psi fuel pressure/12-13psi boost/base timing@14* with Bipes pulling 6-8*. The Begi 2025 AFPR is widely recognized as the best. A Walbro 190lphHP is the fuel pump of choice as the stocker will only fuel to about 80psi and it's probably not capable of that after 13years.
The above setup after a few dyno pulls for fine-tuning will give you a safely flat AF curve and if the engine is has good compression will last quite a long time.
You really don't need any special fab skillz... if you can assemble Ikea furniture, you can design and install a turbo kit for this car. The major companies will sell you parts or pieces of a kit separately. A clean garage, jackstands, and basic tools (but you'll end up buying a few more probably) are all you really need if you buy quality parts.
MAF/MAS/AFM are essentially the same thing and we use them around here interchangable although it's not quite right. They're the same in that they measure air and provide a signal to the ECU in the form of a voltage that it uses to appropriately add fuel. There are two kinds in Miatas. We usually refer to the MAF/AFM when talking about the 1.6liter units that are "flapper-door style" and measure the actual volume of air flowing through the flapper that is forced opened farther as you apply a greater load to the engine. We typically call a MAS (Mass Airflow Sensor) with two individual wires inside that IN COMBINATION WITH AN IAT sensor determine air volume. Also, read up in the FAQ about closed loop and open loop... there's an O2 sensor in the exhaust that plays an important role in fueling whether the car is in open or closed loop. I think that's all right?
Water injection does not require an IC, and a few guys around here have had HUGE success with WI standalone kits... there's even a special forum for it on the main forum page. However, since overall it's really easy to install an IC in this car, at WI is arguably better used IN CONJUNCTION with an IC. The only drawback is the need to refill the bottle which most guys do when they're waiting for the gas tank to fill.
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07-11-2007, 07:28 PM
#12
FYI I contacted BOTH Begi & FM about this, and BOTH said yes....For MY wants, FM ended up just quoting me off the site (no "kit type" discount), and I ended up only needing/wanting the Mani+DP from Begi so again no savings...I had gotten my turbo & IC, and was hoping to save the retail price of those items plus whatever else I could scavenge...
Just a lil fyi...
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07-11-2007, 07:58 PM
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I just did some heavy researching on the Megasquirt and I think I can easily put one together from a kit. If I had to estimate a time I would say at the most a weekend, maybe 10 hours of very careful assembly of the stimulator and the ECU itself.
For 200 bucks, why wouldnt I go for a stand alone ecu. I wont have to dick around with an RRFPR and just use a larger FP with larger injectors.
For 200 bucks, why wouldnt I go for a stand alone ecu. I wont have to dick around with an RRFPR and just use a larger FP with larger injectors.
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07-11-2007, 08:02 PM
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I just did some heavy researching on the Megasquirt and I think I can easily put one together from a kit. If I had to estimate a time I would say at the most a weekend, maybe 10 hours of very careful assembly of the stimulator and the ECU itself.
For 200 bucks, why wouldnt I go for a stand alone ecu. I wont have to dick around with an RRFPR and just use a larger FP with larger injectors.
For 200 bucks, why wouldnt I go for a stand alone ecu. I wont have to dick around with an RRFPR and just use a larger FP with larger injectors.
Power Steering is a lot easier than you'd think it is to remove. You keep the same rack and wheel; just remove the pump and reservoir, and loop the two rubber lines together. Pump all the fluid out of the rack so there's no pressure resistance, and boom. Manual steering for free. Shaves about 20lbs and the steering feel is fantastic.
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07-11-2007, 08:10 PM
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You don't even need a fuel pump, actually. My car put down 200rwhp on a Megasquirt last week with a stock fuel pump and 465cc Rx7 injectors. I'm shooting for 220-230 this weekend.
Power Steering is a lot easier than you'd think it is to remove. You keep the same rack and wheel; just remove the pump and reservoir, and loop the two rubber lines together. Pump all the fluid out of the rack so there's no pressure resistance, and boom. Manual steering for free. Shaves about 20lbs and the steering feel is fantastic.
Power Steering is a lot easier than you'd think it is to remove. You keep the same rack and wheel; just remove the pump and reservoir, and loop the two rubber lines together. Pump all the fluid out of the rack so there's no pressure resistance, and boom. Manual steering for free. Shaves about 20lbs and the steering feel is fantastic.
Man I really dont want to ditch my P/S. I have to parallel park often and just dont want to wrestle with the wheel. Just because I like exercise doesn't mean I want to do it behind the wheel.
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07-11-2007, 08:18 PM
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yea yea yea, you live in california with your fancy shmancy valet and parking lots, if only we were all so lucky.
Samnavy, Savington, thanks a lot of taking the time to respond to this thread with such clear responses. I believe it takes just one careful explanation and it saves on a lot of future questions.
Samnavy, Savington, thanks a lot of taking the time to respond to this thread with such clear responses. I believe it takes just one careful explanation and it saves on a lot of future questions.
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07-11-2007, 08:44 PM
#18
Sam if you get a MS then you could keep the factory pump becouse at factory pressures it flows plenty of fuel for about 400 hp. but the cost of the ecu 250$ minimum+ bigger injectors 50-150$=300-400$ and the cost of a Walboro hp fuel pump is 93$ with a rrfpr being anywhere from 35-250$= 130-343$
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07-11-2007, 09:14 PM
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Sam if you get a MS then you could keep the factory pump becouse at factory pressures it flows plenty of fuel for about 400 hp. but the cost of the ecu 250$ minimum+ bigger injectors 50-150$=300-400$ and the cost of a Walboro hp fuel pump is 93$ with a rrfpr being anywhere from 35-250$= 130-343$
I bet when I do mine I could do exactly what the MSpnp guys did, scavenge an old ecu and get its plugs. Then just build my MS into an enclosure with the factory mazda plugs to interface with the harness already in the car.
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07-11-2007, 09:16 PM
#20
dude there is one for sale that just needs the harness made in the for sale section. https://www.miataturbo.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=11188 i agree MS is very nice.
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