Need some help-I keep destroying Turbos
 

OK, my sig shows what I am rocking.
Turbonetics T3 Super 60 with stage 1 exh wheel and .48 a/r
20psi
BEGI mani
Tial WG
3" DP

I get that turbo and you see the dyno results.
After Dyno time and 3 laps around HTM at Willow springs The shaft is bent to shit and the bearings are destroyed.
New oil, EGT's never went over 12-1300.

Send it back. get a new one. they give me some bullshit line about my EGT's.
Whatever. So they think I should have a water cooled.
I say whatever and get the turbo. They did cover it under warranty.

I strap this bitch on, I do a short event in Riverside and then I go to a competition up at willow springs this Sunday. Nice and cold there all day. Engine temps dont go past 190*. Oil has 1 event on it. I do the practice runs, qualify in first place :)
I do my 1st tandem run and lead OK. Even though the turbo felt like it had increased lag and a weird noise(whiny). I thought maybe I modulated poorly and it was my fault. I did fine, it was a winning lead.
Soooo I got to follow this dude, thing sounds like shit, spools like shit and then I basically lose power and lose the round. I am pissed. So I go to the pits and the turbo sounds like a super charger, the shaft is kinda bent again and there is a shit ton of shaft play. There was never any smoke or anything like a seal went the 1st or 2nd turbo..

Now that I am over the loss, what the hell is causing these things to shit the bed on me?? I am not doing some weird radical shit with my tune, fuel, boost set up..

Any ideas folks??

thanks,
Jeff

That sucks Jeff!

But you're not the first person I've heard this type of story from. Turbonetics has a very limited market saturation, but it seems that I hear weird catastrophic failure stories often. My buddies with H2's say nothing but bad things.

I understand they have a 1 year, no questions, warranty on their turbos. But since they've already replaced your turbo once, I don't know if it's still covered under that warranty--or if once they replace it, they're done.

Maybe it's time to go to Garrett or Precision.

No shit, I am super frustrated.
They better replace thing. I am ready to drive there and take a few turbos off the shelf and sell them. Then buy a garrett..

Dammit

Maybe check yourself on the compressor map and make sure you're not in surge. That will kill a journal-bearing turbo in short order. Pretty small turbo for 20 psi, though it's so old my familiarity is limited, and I could be off base.

This is their Ball bearing model. Though I have heard that their BB is not dual, just one side.

They claim efficient up to 22psi. I am at 20 and on my dyno it shows boost just starts to dip a bit around 6800rpm if iremeber correctly.

This turbo should pull 20psi all day. Its making great power and HP does not drop much at all. It holds well.

As for surge, I dont see it as a problem, my BOV works fine.

I mean, a 2560r can do 20psi all day. This POS should..

That turbo should be right around the end of its efficiency at that pressure, but not out of breath. Thats why we recommended it to him. It might be a "small" t3 but its no lightweight. Remember, it has a larger turbine than even a 2871r.

Not sure what could be killing your turbines. I guess its is possible that the shaft is spinning to fast at that pressure.

2560r can't run over 15psi with any efficiency. This thing has a good bit higher power potential. Should flow around 35lbs.

at 310whp on a mustang dyno i think you may be asking too much from that turbo

ugh....

elaborate, that sound effect sounds like you just ejaculated at your desk....again:giggle:

Time to go to a bigger turbo to keep the revolutions a bit lower?

I'm surprised the first turbo they gave you was not coolant/water cooled as well.

EGTs are low. I dont think water is necessary.

Do you all think this would be an issue if this was a dual ball bearing turbo?

Bigger turbo is slower spool. I cant afford that..

free lunches are one backorder, sorry

This is a 2560R right. isn't that water and oil cooled. Mine was.

It only takes 2 seconds to hook up the water. You just get 1/4in tubing and run it from the thermostate housing to the turbo. And run te next line to where the other came off.

I wouldn't risk it. And the worst it could do is increase power a life in the turbo. It is so easy, I would let my 18yr/old brother do it, on my car.
Good Luck!

did you read any of this thread?

water does jack for shit while the car is running. If they suggested that they know less than I do about turbos.

Not that turbo. Yes water lines are easy. I am mechanically inclined.

I agree. From what I have seen with others running turbo at less boost, more boost, 30psi, they dont need water..

Right, this turbo should be fine, Period. They even claim a large shaft. WTF... Cant be that large.

I agree about efficiency, but I am sure it wouldnt shit bearings all over..

how much oil pressure are you making? Is the wastegate open at target boost?


You could always get a .48ar turbine housing and a super-aggressive compressor wheel with a large AR.

@Hustler - He has a.48ar turbine housing already and a turbine larger than yours. If he increases the size of his compressor too much then he will lose spool which I gather he needs for dr1fting.

@Turns - I am currently using the same turbo as you roughly and I love the spool. You can check my fifth gear log in Brain's spool data thread. This weekend we will be dropping in my new motor and I will be upgrading to a super special compressor wheel. I'll be posting more logs then to see what the difference in spool is. I'll let you know if its not much different.

^^ thanks man.
What brand is your turbo? Same brand? Who will be making the more agressive wheel for you?
Also, when this turbo is working I love how it feels and performs. Shit, 300+ with whp and TQ is sick stuff in this car. Everyone shits themselves when they see how fast it is..

Huslter- I make pretty much stock oil press. Maybe a bit more when going super full nuts. I dont have that restrictive oil cooler water thingy where the stock oil filter location goes either. So flow is smoother..

Wastegate opens appropriately..

OH, Just talk to let you all know. i just spoke with a tech at Full Race and they feel I should rock a 2871R. They think I will easily make the power and it will spool faster..

Thanks everyone!!

Any takes on that??

My buddy's 2l miata motor makes 8psi at like 3600 with a boostlogic manifold. I don't see how it will spin up faster, but they know more than I do. I have the same hot-side, smaller cold-side, and I'm making 11psi at 3500rpm with the absurd manifold.

What about the tune? Are you at MBT in the "boost building" cells? What AFR's?

As for the tune, that is handled by Danzio performance. I dont have an answer for you.
I can say he has one hell of a brag book. He used to tune all of the falken cars and still does their rally cars. he still does the Tanaka 600+ftlbs Corvette.
So I trust his tunes. he tunes off of A/R.

Hustler, what is your max boost? Do you think you could hit 20psi by 4k? What turbo do you have again?
What turbo does your buddy have??

Thanks man

If you can't afford slower spool, can you afford headwork/better exhaust/better exhaust manifold? Go BB and water, get a good turbo a bit larger and let the rest of the engine help it spool.

I'd like to see a compressor map. Remember, 20 psi manifold, especially if your intercooler or TB is restrictive, is more than 20 psi turbine outlet. And if the air cleaner isn't up to snuff, you're even further over on the map.

Overspinning it is my best guess. A close second would be getting an oil filter on the turbo oil feed. My friend lost a turbo on his diesel from a little nothing in his oil.

Either that or they are just plain not assembled right. Single bearing turbos are somewhat susceptible to surge.

I have head work- cleaned up, smooth castings, 1mm oversized valves
I have 3" dp and 3" piping with no muffler
BEGI Series 5 manifold.

What about intake manifold and throttle body?

When it was running, did you happen to ever hook boost gauges up both pre and post throttle body? Would be interesting to see what the inefficiencies are.

I've never put more than 18psi through it. Its overboosted to 18psi at 4200rpm or so. I think with the smaller turbine housings, you could probably do it.
gt2860rs w/.86AR turbine housing w/tial wastegate
gt2871 w/ .63AR turbine housing w/tial wastegate

Why don't you call Garrett and tell them what you want? It sounds to me like you want a rally-car style turbo sizing.

Do you know what HP you're making, Hustler? Seems like a slow spool. Open exhaust I assume?

I don't think its slow to spool.
http://i34.tinypic.com/2hcnxbd.png
Due to my drama on the dyno, I still don't have a dyno chart for the forum. My boost gauge died, I went out of town, and now I'm sick...hopefully I'll get on there next weekend to get a final pull with my car and tune another friend's car.
Not open, just 3" exhaust. 12psi at 3400rpm was roughly 220wtq on a mustang, or 245wtq on a dynojet (and too fat in that log). Torque peaks at 4400, but I still need to get it back on the dyno and finish it up with a couple pulls because its basically tuned.

I've driven a well-tuned 1994 W/gt2554 and was not impressed. Its all about perception; mine was faster at every rpm regardless of when I hit target boost. The noise, butt dyno, and boost gauge may not say it, but the dyno doesn't lie.

I did not take those measurements. My throttle body is slightly worked bringing down any cast marks and opene up as much as possible with the stock flapper still sealing.

The intake manifold is modded like Pauls. It may be hurting my spool a bit, but HP carries nicely.

I am at 200ftlbs at 3600rpm.. kinda sucks..
A bit before 4600 I have 310ftlbs. Its a serious jump LOL

Huslter, I do basically want a rally type set up. Need spool, response and power. I am fine with what I have now. It just keeps shitting out..

After talking with FULL RACE and sending them my dyno and compressor maps, they feel there may be a 2871 that will rock..

We will see..

Thanks everyone for your input..

I think a 2871 is not going to do what you want. Look at Savington's set up, it basically delivers power like my car.

With a rally-car style turbo you're not going to make much power, but you'll make a ton of torque down low. You want something that is not "off-the-shelf" and should call someone at Garrett. i know one guy with an old Gallant who rallies the car has a custom turbo from Majestic with tiny housings and "stage-5 compressor and turbine wheels". It makes gobs and gobs of torque at 3500rpm, then no hp after that but it works for rally-x.


I'm really interested to see what you end up with.

I understand what you mean.

My current Dyno plot is just fine. I just cant have it come on any later than that.

The 2860rs seems like it may be spinning a bit too fast..

Abe, never replied to you.

TB and intercooler should be fine. Air cleaner should be ok.

I have the oil filter in the turbo..

I believe assembly and single bearing = not tough enough for me ;)