https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...75f93b0572.jpg
Looks like a thicc boi. Guess it would just be a matter of changing downpipe to vband. I'll keep my ear to the ground to see who's the first Miata owner to give it a shot. At $2300 + downpipe fab work; it's one steep price of entry. Guess there is no chance they will make a addition to this model to make for a nearly direct 2560R.

If they are going to make it internally gated, design the gate flow, and include all this, it will be at the price of an EFR.......without the gamma ti wheel.

So yeah. Back to square one

Are EFRs super cheap in the US? In the UK, a 6258 0.64 T25 and a G25-550 0.49 T25 are within ~$100 of each other, hence my interest!

At least in the US EFR pricing swings around randomly. I have seen brand new ones for as low as $1150, and as high as $1700 all within a year from the same vendor.

With the t2 exhaust housing the cheapest G25-550 I can find is over $23xx. Once you factor a quality BOV into that range ($100-$250) to equal the EFR in parts. That price difference is huge to me.

I am actually checking on G25-550 pricing from a few of my sources. I may pick one up later this year to try out against a 6258 and 6758.

Massive difference in pricing.

In central europe a 6258 is ~1600€, so is a G25-550.
Hopefully someone pulls the trigger on these new garrets, i'm so interested in this.

Sadly there is no T25 flange on both sides of the exhaust housing :(

Never mind that you'd need to go deep into the Mazda engine to get it up to that level. Or are you talking about swapping the Ford engine into a Miata?

^^ He is more referring to the turbo'd capability on a relatively small displacement engine

I was trying to make the point that the turbo looks like it has potential, if it can spool that well but make good power up top on a 1.6 Sigma, then it could be a great performer on a BP.

But also, that entire engine/turbo setup on that fiesta would be a really nice drop in too. Should be much lighter than an MZR (and much lighter than a BP) but still 455bhp on pump fuel.

Well I purchased a G25-550 today with t a T2 housing. I should be doing some BP testing, but really it is for my NC.

Awesome man looking forward to seeing how it does.

T2 housing is on back order. No idea on ETA for shipment to me at the moment. I am very interested in if it fits on a FM/Begi manifold and has down pipe clearance in the back.

I don't see why it wouldn't it's basically the same physical size as a 2554/2560/2860/2867/2871

Mike at Blouch Turbo is working on machining the G25-550 CHRA to the legacy turbine housings. That's a pretty appealing path for those who already invested $$$ in GT/GTX setups. I spoke to him a few months ago and he said it looks very promising. If forced to start over from scratch I'd go EFR.

There are really two separate issues, technology, and quality control.

Garrett in the US have a very long history of turbocharger and small gas turbine engine development, and their turbochargers have been very successfully mass produced and marketed worldwide.
In recent times, Garrett management decided to move all turbocharger manufacturing to China, to reduce manufacturing costs. That did not all happen in one day, but all Garret turbochargers are now sourced entirely from within China.

Most if not all of the very experienced Garrett engineers were offered jobs in China, but very few liked the idea of moving their entire families to China, learning a new language, and the huge culture shock involved in moving to a very strict communist country. So all the vast pool of turbocharger technical knowledge, experience, and expertise built up over decades remained in the US.

Borg Warner saw that as a great business opportunity and took on the very best Garret turbocharger engineers, and started some very fresh and up to date new turbocharger designs. All the decades of experience and knowledge went into these new Borg Warner turbos which are, or probably soon will be the leaders in quality and performance worldwide.

Meanwhile, the Chinese really struggled with quality control and metallurgy, with the existing but rapidly dating original Garret designs. Some of the original early Chinese Garrets gained a horrible reputation for dramatic early failure, but they seem to be learning. The greatest worry is not so much the genuine Chinese Garrets, but the fake Chinese back yard Garrett $200 dollar clone copies. Plenty of you-tube and e-bay horror stories about those.

The problem I see it, is how do you know your shiny new Garrett turbocharger is a genuine Garrett, and not a fake copy ? As they all come from China now, its difficult to know.

At least you can be certain that Borg Warner EFR turbocharges were manufactured in the US from proper materials, proper tolerances, with up to date ISO quality control standards.
I believe the Chinese are very good at copying things, but not so good at original research and development, and will gradually fall further and further behind unless they can use industrial espionage to steal the latest Borg Warner technology, without truly understanding it. That is how I see the future,

I believe Garret made a very big mistake moving to China, they lost all their engineers.
Even if Trump makes it worth their while to return Garrett turbocharger manufacturing to the US, I believe they will never be able to ever regain the place they originally had.

Nice story, but in 5 years time Garrett and Borg Warner will go bankrupt.

I hope you are making a joke. I can't see BW or Garrett going bankrupt soon.

Yes, the large asteroid that will strike the earth in 3 years will bankrupt many businesses by 5 years. Little can be done to save them.

The batteries would be their end unfortunately. Hope I'm wrong.

Lol you do realize internal combustion engines are still gonna be around for a long time in spite of electric cars right?

Garrett still make most of the really small gas turbine engines (less than 2,000 Lbs thrust) used in corporate jets and also the small gas turbines for helicopters. Its very similar technology to turbochargers, those are all still made in the US.

Those will still be flying, even if we are all driving electric cars and bicycles.

I look forward to the electric turbo hydrogen fuel cell. There's got to be evil opportunity in that!

I dunno.......

The real bikers would look down with total disdain at anything that makes no noise, no gears, and requires a power cord, as a pansy bike for wimps.
Even if it can go from zero to the speed of light in under two seconds.

There will always be a market for big, loud, intimidating, and fast.
Even if you have to build it yourself and if its not quite legal.

I'm ok with this.

Ftfy

My miata does 0-60 someplace right around 4-ish seconds and it is no longer fast.

Then you need to make it faster?

I have similar long term plans, TVS1320 + probably a GTS3070r.
Have done the compound trick myself many times before, first attempt was over thirty years ago, have learned a great deal since then.
Already have a front entry TVS, just bought a BP-4W today in fact, ideal as a spare engine to sort out the blower drive, and ITB setup.

Loud and slow is the tempo for most idiots on the road, from Hondas to Harleys to pickups. Loud is stupid and unrefined. We have the technology to be very fast with a refined sound but most mouth breathers haven't figured it out yet.

Sorry for the digression from turbo talk.

BoshiWheel has a G25 copy out now. Apparently it is not made very well.

Any news on this turbo?

Anyone with this turbo fitted?

I am looking for some information on this and on the G25-660.

I've seen site sponsor SPS Motorsport in Germany offer a kit that appears to use a Kraken top mount manifold and they say 330hp for the G25-550 and 360hp for the G25-660, both with a 200 cell cat.

https://sps-motorsportshop.com/shop/...-1.8-g25?c=220

By way of comparison these numbers are a bit lower than what they say the EFR 6258 and 6758 are recommended for (330-360 and 360-400 respectively).

Turbine sizes are mentioned but I'd assume the G25 ones are limited to the 0.49 A/R T25 housing here.

They are a bit conservative they only do 1.1 or 1.2 bars of boost.

I have a GTX2860R gen2 and i am making 365HP with 1.45 bars.

Have just dropped Guido@SPS a PM to see if he can post some real world feedback on how these compare to the older Garretts and the EFRs..

That sounds pretty good, what housing, fuel, and manifold? And which G25 variant are you thinking of moving to?

Yea same here, I'm running a 2860gen2 at 1.5 bar. Making 370whp

Think they prefer the EFR 6758 in general

It's a AR 0.64 with 98Ron and my manifold it's a Kraken tip mount.

I looking into the G25 660 T25 Ar .49 but that's my question if will do around 450hp?

Do think the turbo it's limited by the compressor or by the turbine exhaust side?

It's the compressor. All the GTX28* turbos use the same turbine.

--Ian

But the gtx2867r makes more power.

Do you think that a g25 660 AR .49 will make around 450 500hp?

But the gtx2867r makes more power.

Do you think that a g25 660 AR .49 will make around 450 500hp?

I am still waiting o my t25 G25-550 to come in. They are on back order from Garrett.

365hp with 0.64 and 98 RON is pretty good! Is that a racetrack 365hp or a street 365? Any head mods eg cams?

I've only seen one EFR 6758 claim to make more on 98 RON.

I can't see how such a small A/R can make more power, but there must be some logic behind that decision by Garrett.

It’s both street and track. I tuned both this gtx2860 gen and my EFR6258 and we’re making the same power. Both are struggling on the top end as wastegate is struggling to push this kind of pressures. I think I can squiz a couple more in my 6258 because wastegate control is so much better, on the Garrett is just all over the place even on a harder spring.

On the other hand, I’m working on a 6758 right now and I can tell it will make more power easily, just waiting on a 3bar MAP sensor.

Regarding the g25 a/r you can’t correlat it directly, at least by Garret turbine flow maps, it flows the same as the “old” .64

I have both 6258 and 6758 on hand that I plan on testing against the G25-550. I plan on testing it on a TSE manifold, mkturbo manifold, possibly BEGI Alpha-Omega, and possibly a kraken manifold or two.

Did you test the 6758 already?

Not on a dyno. I have played around with a 6758 on the street some. Don't have and logs I will be sharing of it. One day in the future I will be done a good number of back to back dyno runs to test them all.

Unfortunately since we are in the middle of a pandemic, dropping a ton of money on dyno testing isn't as high on the to do list of other things.

I can tell you that both on my car and yours, we’re making 60% dc on the ebc untill 5500rpm and need to bump it to full close or near close to have 145/150 kpa of boost. In the 6758 I have 60% across all the rpm range and it keeps it rock solid. So I know it’s making already the same power but with a lot more headroom for bumping it up. Of corse know will tell how much, but giving the 15* I can put @ hour boost level, it will make at least, 0,2b more making power

Interesting to hear your experiences.

Good point on the turbine flow charts, I'd seen those too. I also suspect the G25 IWG can move a lot more air at lower backpressure, so maybe helps high RPM there too.

Please post up how you get on with the 6758.

I do not think you will hit 450 with a .49 turbine housing. You need bigger to make over 400. The compressor can do it but youll need about 2 bar of boost and good gas, and the larger hotside. Then 450-500 is doable.

@kamel6k / @leita0 - it might be worth pointing out that everyone here only ever talks about wheel horsepower, not flywheel horsepower like we do in Europe... From one of the other threads where leita0 posted a dyno the 365HP maybe at the fly, 300ish at the wheels...

FWIW, I'm making 300whp (350something fwhp) on a gen1 GTX2860R, external wastegate and the dinky Tial 0.52A/R exhaust housing on UK 97RON (~92 US?) fuel. 1.3bar / 230KPa boost until redline...

@jonboy was we can see the flywheel power measure in most of dynos here in Europe are about the same as WHP in the USA.

Not wanting to get into WHP vs HP..... but 60-130mph in 8 seconds sounds like more power than a dynojet 300whp?

300whp on a 0.52 A/R also sounds interesting! Any plots and hardware info?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...de5df172d4.jpg
Noooo - don't go there! ;)

I agree, everyone in the EU uses FWHP, but everyone in the US uses WHP. As this is a US forum, we need to abide by their rules, and never ever suggest that European horses are different to American ones ;) Some of the Australian members suggested that and it got very 'heated'... ;)

60-130mph in 8 seconds means ~350whp/400fwhp. What setup is this?

edit: 365 crank, saw it in the other thread.
I'll go on the Autobahn this week (100% flat) and do a 100-200kmh pull with 265whp and report back.

There's a spec post somewhere on here, but it's basically a fairly standard supertech (8.6 comp?) / chinese rods / VVT head / Squaretop build, tubular v-band EWG manifold (one of the original Ardler / Nortech ones if you ever follow the UK forums), Tial EWG, Owen Developments motorsport spec GTX2860R with the small Tial exhaust housing.

It made an easy 300WHP on a dyno dynamics dyno, the tuner said there was more in it but it was starting to run out of steam - not sure if it's the small exhaust housing or that it's still got the FM 3" ceramic cat in it (or something else). That was on BP 97 (Ultimate) so there's probably some more if we did a 99RON map in it, but I'll probably look into gearbox options before I push it any further...

You were the one that bring this subject to the table ahah

For me its no problem and not a competition its just 2 different ways of measure that are use to compare gains.

The time it takes to make a sprint exercise its universal thats why i put the information of 8 seconds run from 60-130mph measure with dragy.

I don t want to be rude to anyone just trying to get some help and if i can to help out. I will open a build thread with info and videos.

Please guys do miss understand me iam not trying to start a discussion about that.

thanks

It's controversial because it's not true. At least not across the board like y'all make it seem.
I'll gladly compare acceleration data.

Anyways, moving on.

My car does 40-120mph in 8.x seconds something. I don't have a dragy maybe I should get that.

This 400whp car I tuned spins Hoosier slicks :)

Daddy likes, I need to upload some hero 8 footage of my car and post it in this thread lol.

edit :

Thats only at 18psi. I can run more boost but I use a Hydra 2.5 and it needs windows XP. My tuning laptop died and I have the low boost map from the Gap trip still loaded and it has a low boost cut so I need to get another ancient laptop and turn it back up lol. Still spun 3rd gear in that video thats 225/45 Maxxis VR1, which shows the major issue with power is finding a way to put it down haha.