Noob requesting advices on turbo setup
Hi all!
I'm a new member here, you can see my introduction thread here: https://www.miataturbo.net/meet-greet-40/hi-canada-66162/ I have bought a used turbo kit, which consists of a Greddy TD04, with the 19T compressor upgrade and a T28 wastegate. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1338149476 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1338149476 The kit came with the Greddy cast manifold (with the recessed slots to prevent cracks), a 2.5'' downpipe, intercooler and piping, 1.8 tan top injectors, MSD box, BEGI adjustable FPR, some gauges (air/fuel, EGT, boost...) and a few other goodies. Previous owner used to boost up to 13 pounds reliably with this setup. I plan on ditching the FPR and replace it with a Walbro 190hp fuel pump and the adjustable Powercard. I will also replace the air/fuel gauge with a wideband. I don't want to run a standalone for now due to budget limitations, but it is something I am interested in. I have a limited budget and don't want to boost too much for now, I don't really want to exceed 180whp for this season. Reliability is very important for me. I have a new upgraded clutch to install beforehand and will do all the required maintenance so that I boost on a safe base. So since this is my first turboed car, I have a LOT to learn. I would appreciate comments on my kit, and suggestions as I know people here have a lot of knowledge on forced induction applications. I know people here bash a LOT on bandaid setups and prefer full standalone systems, but please be constructive in your critics. Cheers! Michael |
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884105)
I know people here bash a LOT on bandaid setups and prefer full standalone systems, but please be constructive in your critics.
FPRs were the only way when ECUs were in the several thousands to buy... now they're under $200 and really shouldn't be passed up unless learning isn't your thing. |
Originally Posted by gslender
(Post 884175)
I think that is because it is a false economy - if you looked at the time/effort plus outlay, a brand new standalone can be had for the same price as a brand new FPR... so the only really saving is less reading and understanding... the FPR is good if you want to do the least to get going. You wont save money and you will be back replacing it, or adding some other device to combat another part of what is can't do etc.
FPRs were the only way when ECUs were in the several thousands to buy... now they're under $200 and really shouldn't be passed up unless learning isn't your thing. At first I wanted to run an AEM EMS but they are extremely expensive and impossible to find anyway. I'm looking into getting a Megasquirt, but this is my first turboed car and I've never ever tuned a car. Tuning on a dyno means lot of $$$$$$$ that I don't necessarily have right now. Anyways, the previous owner ran this kit at 13psi for 2 years and did lapping with his car with what I could consider ''inferior management''. With the added piggyback I have, I think runnin 8-10psi reliably is doable. I won't be making the most power, but it sure will bring me a smile when I drive the car! |
Don't disagree - just that the cost of a new FPR and Walbro fuel pump = MS2.
The only difference is the learning. You don't need to visit the dyno to tune as you can tune yourself using the software that is available for MegaSquirt. After all, if you are happy with letting the powercard approximate the fuel needs then you aren't chasing a perfect tune anyway. |
Originally Posted by gslender
(Post 884185)
Don't disagree - just that the cost of a new FPR and Walbro fuel pump = MS2.
The only difference is the learning. You don't need to visit the dyno to tune as you can tune yourself using the software that is available for MegaSquirt. After all, if you are happy with letting the powercard approximate the fuel needs then you aren't chasing a perfect tune anyway. And you are right, as of now, I am not aiming for ''the perfect tune'', but something reliable that will get me some decent power compared to stock. I'm aware a lot of people here run incredible setups with LOTS of money in them, but sadly it's just not going to happen with me and my student budget lol. |
First, welcome.
Second, you're wrong on a few things. First of all, the fuel pump and power card won't do squat for your fueling needs. The adjustable fuel pressure regulator that your kit came with looks at the amount of boost your turbo is producing, and pinches off the return fuel line, raising the fuel pressure, therefore delivering more fuel. Your new walbro fuel pump will deliver NO extra fuel, it'll only be new, and capable of higher pressures, IF it's told to deliver said higher pressures, by something like the fuel pressure regulator. From my limited understanding of the powercard, there's no pressure reference, so even if you could design a map to work, any time you raise your boost, lower your boost, drive at part throttle, or cruise, your map would be way off. Thirdly, a wideband is an air/fuel gauge, so make sure you know what you received. If you mean you only got a narrow band, then yes, ditch it for a wideband. Fourthly, the new generation megasquirt plug-and-plays (MSPNP) are amazing and $800. First generation MSPNPs can't be found online anymore (I think), and ended their life at around $500. Kits can be bought for ~$275 and built for free if you know how to solder, or around $400 will buy you a kit and have someone build it for you. Fifthly, you don't need a dyno to run a MS. I myself built and tuned my bandaid setup, then built and tuned my MS setup. I would never run bandaids again and will never suggest it, and feel perfectly comfortable tracking my current, no dyno, MS tune. Yes, it's a steep learning curve, but it's possible and the idea shouldn't be dismissed. |
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 884196)
First, welcome.
Second, you're wrong on a few things. First of all, the fuel pump and power card won't do squat for your fueling needs. The adjustable fuel pressure regulator that your kit came with looks at the amount of boost your turbo is producing, and pinches off the return fuel line, raising the fuel pressure, therefore delivering more fuel. Your new walbro fuel pump will deliver NO extra fuel, it'll only be new, and capable of higher pressures, IF it's told to deliver said higher pressures, by something like the fuel pressure regulator. From my limited understanding of the powercard, there's no pressure reference, so even if you could design a map to work, any time you raise your boost, lower your boost, drive at part throttle, or cruise, your map would be way off. So far so good, my friend says he loves the way his fuel is delivered, the car idles perfectly and he makes a reliable 160whp with his TD04 Greddy turbo.
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 884196)
Thirdly, a wideband is an air/fuel gauge, so make sure you know what you received. If you mean you only got a narrow band, then yes, ditch it for a wideband.
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 884196)
Fourthly, the new generation megasquirt plug-and-plays (MSPNP) are amazing and $800. First generation MSPNPs can't be found online anymore (I think), and ended their life at around $500. Kits can be bought for ~$275 and built for free if you know how to solder, or around $400 will buy you a kit and have someone build it for you.
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 884196)
Fifthly, you don't need a dyno to run a MS. I myself built and tuned my bandaid setup, then built and tuned my MS setup. I would never run bandaids again and will never suggest it, and feel perfectly comfortable tracking my current, no dyno, MS tune.
Yes, it's a steep learning curve, but it's possible and the idea shouldn't be dismissed. |
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 884196)
I would never run bandaids again and will never suggest it, and feel perfectly comfortable tracking my current, no dyno, MS tune.
Yes, it's a steep learning curve, but it's possible and the idea shouldn't be dismissed.
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884202)
Yes, Megasquirt scares me.
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884202)
I try to read the most I can online and perticularly on this forum, but I can hardly see myself jump the gun right away and tune a car.
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884202)
But I agree that 800$ for a MSPNP is relatively cheap.
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884202)
I've been in two turboed Miatas as of now, one with a basic Greddy kit with MSD box and FMU pushing 140whp and the other with a TD04 and a Powercard running 160whp and I can say they are real fun to drive. I think I'll just run the car with piggybacks for now, learn hot to tune, and switch to a standalone next season. Yes I will have lost a few bucks along the road, but I still think I will enjoy driving the car with the hardware I have.
My car now runs stronger out of boost than it ever did before. The optimization of AFR and timing has REALLY woken things up in my case. The factory timing table is garbage. Its designed for emissions compliance and nothing else. The AFR tuning has already yielded something like 5-6 MPG increase in fuel economy. Why? Because in classic band-aid fashion, all it did was dump fuel to make up for additional air. TL;DR: Save your money until you can afford a MegaSquirt or some other stand-alone ECU, buy/build/install/tune, THEN install your turbo and get into the boost. |
Another small benefit is the fact that with an ECU like MS2 you get a fully logged view of the engine including air temp, clt temp, manifold pressure/boost, rpm, spark, afr, throttle position, plus a ridiculous number of other things you can't possibly ever wish for... and if you ever want to add COPs you can (without another bandaid dwell reducer) or go fully sequential injection you can... there is just way more scope to do it right, and the cost is still in the $400-$500 and the learning requirements are similar.
|
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884202)
Yes, Megasquirt scares me.
Originally Posted by Aprilcurly'sGF
(Post 884202)
Tell him to stop being a -----
|
Michael, this is Josh. We talked on the chat earlier.
As I figured, everyone in here has repeated what I told you verbatim. I've been around MS for a while, but even with a brand new system in my car, I was comfortable driving my car to work the same day I installed it. You can do it too, man. When I get my subscription figured out I'll send you a PM about the MS-PNP I am selling and maybe we can work out a deal and get you running in the right direction. Oh and welcome to the lion's den. You're doing well so far. |
Oh well, it just seems like I'll have to find a buyer for my newly acquired PC :(
And on to my new quest: buy a used MSPNP! |
Originally Posted by viperormiata
(Post 884298)
Michael, this is Josh. We talked on the chat earlier.
As I figured, everyone in here has repeated what I told you verbatim. I've been around MS for a while, but even with a brand new system in my car, I was comfortable driving my car to work the same day I installed it. You can do it too, man. When I get my subscription figured out I'll send you a PM about the MS-PNP I am selling and maybe we can work out a deal and get you running in the right direction. Oh and welcome to the lion's den. You're doing well so far. So far, I find mt.net has a lot of knowledgeable poeple, so it somewhat gives me hope that I can tune the car using MS and your help. Thanks to everyone! |
So yeah it happened. I'm about to pull the trigger on a used DIY MS2 built by Brain here, guy says it comes with IAT sensor and cord (I assume it is what plugs into OEM harness).
400$ for such a unit, what do you guys think? |
It would depend on the condition and specific things it comes with. The plain ms2 kit itself is only $278 new in parts that is kit assembled. If it is a DIYPNP then they are more but it is more plug-n-play etc.
G |
It is a DIYPNP. So just bought it. Where should I start to learn more on tuning using a MS? Since the guy previously used this MS to run his turbo setup, will I be able to just plug it and it should start on these maps, or should I download a baseline map and then begin tuning.
|
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884458)
So yeah it happened. I'm about to pull the trigger on a used DIY MS2 built by Brain here, guy says it comes with IAT sensor and cord (I assume it is what plugs into OEM harness).
400$ for such a unit, what do you guys think? You'll need to run a vacuum T from the stock fuel pressure regulator to the MS, and mount the AIT sensor somewhere in your intake tract and wire it in. That kind of info can be found here: https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquirt-18/super-important-megasquirt-threads-17498/ In that first "make and install" thread.
Originally Posted by 4frnt
(Post 884492)
It is a DIYPNP. So just bought it. Where should I start to learn more on tuning using a MS? Since the guy previously used this MS to run his turbo setup, will I be able to just plug it and it should start on these maps, or should I download a baseline map and then begin tuning.
If it's a MSII, you have bigger spark maps and fuel maps than I'm used to, 20x20 instead of 16x16, or something like that. Anyways, make sure you're getting a MSII map instead of a MSI map, try the link in this thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...light=msII+map Then tune from there. Search around a lot here for air/fuel ratio target tables. That's a 12x12 (again, might be bigger for you) table where you tell it what AFR you'd like to be at which RPM and boost point. So high RPM with no boost you don't need as much fuel as higher RPM and lots of boost. Get it? Anyways, with that, you use either Tunerstudios (a tuning program) to autotune, which looks simultaneously looks at your current AFR and your target, and adjusts fueling on the fly to bring actual closer to the target. I suggest this method. Then there's MLV (Mega Log Viewer) tuning, which takes logs of runs and you run it through a filter to get your new fuel table, after the drive. |
Originally Posted by curly
(Post 884504)
Generally "cable" refers to the cable that connects the laptop to the MS. "Harness" refers to the park that connects the OEM ECU plugs to the MS, if it's not a MSPNP, since those units plug directly in.
You'll need to run a vacuum T from the stock fuel pressure regulator to the MS, and mount the AIT sensor somewhere in your intake tract and wire it in. That kind of info can be found here: https://www.miataturbo.net/showthread.php?t=17498 In that first "make and install" thread. Generally fuel maps are what make it run good or bad, spark maps are what can make more power, but if done wrong you'll blow the thing up. If it's a MSII, you have bigger spark maps and fuel maps than I'm used to, 20x20 instead of 16x16, or something like that. Anyways, make sure you're getting a MSII map instead of a MSI map, try the link in this thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...light=msII+map Then tune from there. Search around a lot here for air/fuel ratio target tables. That's a 12x12 (again, might be bigger for you) table where you tell it what AFR you'd like to be at which RPM and boost point. So high RPM with no boost you don't need as much fuel as higher RPM and lots of boost. Get it? Anyways, with that, you use either Tunerstudios (a tuning program) to autotune, which looks simultaneously looks at your current AFR and your target, and adjusts fueling on the fly to bring actual closer to the target. I suggest this method. Then there's MLV (Mega Log Viewer) tuning, which takes logs of runs and you run it through a filter to get your new fuel table, after the drive. Can't thank you enough for all these valuable infos. Another question: will I be able to keep my cruise control? |
of course.
Dann |
Dang it. This thread just convinced me to go MS. The previous owner has run the band aid set up for years reliably and I'm just now learning how it all works thanks to the DIY thread on this forum, but I really want to make it more reliable and more powerful.
I just need to find that thing called INCOME again. |
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