Piston rings and Rods
 

Some background first. I've got a 96 with 63,000 miles on it which I bought when it had 59,000 miles and I'm pretty sure the previous owner was very ---- about keeping the car in good condition even though he never made one single mod to the car.

I've faced cooling issues ever since I first bought the car; in fact I've already blown 2 headgaskets :mad:. So far, I've installed a PWR radiator and the FCM fan shroud (shitty investments if you ask me). I've already ordered the new Qmax system and I figure I will be getting my kit by mid April. I've also already ordered and I'm waiting to receive the new Autonexion hood (this wasn't so much due to the fact that I thought it would improve my engine temps but because I had a small accident which affected the original OEM hood).

I turboed my car a while ago (I think it was the end of November if my memory serves me well) and can finally control at what temp my fans come in.

I was at the shop today and my tuner suggested that we get some piston rings for the car when we open the engine to correct a small oil leak it has. I decided to follow his advice on my own terms. I'm going to change the rings and get some rods when the Qmax is here (mid April). I went back and reread samnavy's thread on his rebuild and got some ideas (thank you) but I still need some assistance.

Let me state what my plans are:

1) New piston rings
2) Rods
3) ARP studs?
4) Metal headgasket

And I need assistance as to where to buy the different items mentioned and also specifications (in the case of the piston rings).

I really would prefer not to change pistons since I don't think there's any damage in my case but if I had to I wouldn't want to buy forged ones.

I consider this project more like getting some safety margin than anything else. I don't see this becoming a major engine overhaul.

BTW, the head was slightly ported about 1 month ago and they installed new valve seals.

Thanks,

Rafa

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Rafa, I will follow your build/parts gathering since im in a very similar situation, except i have a major oil leak/consumption now

-note to self-must do leakdown test asap

+1 - I don't have the urgency, but plan a rebuild in the next 2-3 years and am in the process of gathering the knowledge and parts needed.

are you sure you dont just want to use a new tuner? like one that knows how to set the timing on the car so you dont keep blowing headgaskets?

Shit... thanks Dan, I knew I was forgetting something to do tomorrow :giggle: I need to do a compression and leakdown test.

I'm in the same boat, and about to rebuild a 1.8. Samnavy's thread was helpful but 1.6 specific. I could not find that Toga made rings for the 1.8.

949Racing dropped the H-beams that I wanted to use. Belfab still has H-beams, but I think they have gone up in price. Are there anymore choices?

For rings I was looking at the Ross Racing Rings
http://www.importperformanceparts.ne...portrings.html

Summit has one of the better deals I have seen on ARP hardware. My question is how much of the need is marketing? At what point do they start to stretch (I am assuming thats what the ARPs cure)? Or are there other fasteners just as good as ARP at better price?
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku

Update- Froogle found them cheaper here, but not by much.
http://www.carshopinc.com/product_in...74938/218-4701
http://www.carshopinc.com/product_in...74939/218-5401
I can't vouch for this company either. I just found them.

On the head gasket, no one seems to sell an upgraded option. Apparently the stock gasket is more than sufficient. Anyone know anything different?

I am posting this to show what I was thinking about doing not necessarily to say this is how to do it. I want to see what others are thinking too.

lol; that's a good point but I blew the first one even before I ever took my car to his shop and completely NA with the stock ECU.

FWIW, I wish I lived in the States just to be able to get access to good shops. In the meantime, I have to play with the hand I was dealt. :mad:

Who would've told me 1 year ago I would had to read and learn so much mechanical stuff.

jsisco, great info there. I'm with you regarding the ARP studs. I also want to know if it's marketing hype or if not I would like some of the gurus to give me the reason to buy them.

BTW, FM does sell a metal headgasket for $85 I think. So far I plan to buy that one if I can't find a cheaper one.

How about the rods that Emilio is selling?

Many thanks,

Rafa

Emilio is the guy at 949Racing and he posted they were having problems with the manufacturer.

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/sho...t=16570&page=2

I was under the impression that the head gasket at FM was just for the 1.6?

Jon

Rafa, you don't really need any better head gasket, just make sure the head is tourqed down right and that your head bolts didnt stretch, maybe thats why you blew the second gasket...ARP is well worth it, they wont stretch (to my knowledge)

Emilio is no longer selling those rods...
Bellfab still carries them
Ask Ben if he is planing another GB in the future for us, i may be in later this year
Miata is on hold, i just bought a house...me so sad now

Another issue; if I buy the ARP studs I have to then buy 2 sets (1 for the bottom and 1 for the head) right? What happens if I cheap out and stick with regular ones? BTW, if I have to buy new ones anyways I would rather go all out and buy the ARP ones.

For me, the crucial issues are the rings and rods. I more or less have the rods covered but I need additional info on which would be the best rings for my case and why?

One thing I was forgetting to mention is that I'm going to be balancing the crank (some local racer has a really updated machine that does precisely that and he charges around $85 to do it). If anyone wants additional info on what precisely is the machine he's got I can pay him a visit tomorrow and get the name. I know about it because I went to see how he balanced a friend's crank from an EVO VI (all I know is that it's controlled via a PC:o). The guy put the crank in it and the program would show how many ounces to take out .

I'll have to check on the FM headgasket. I'll be contacting them tomorrow to verify whether it's only for 1.6L. I'll keep you posted jon. BTW, thanks for the heads up!

Did Mark sell all the sets he had? I think Magna bought the last one.

I'm not sad about that news Dan. Buying a house is always a good thing and I think in the case of those living in the States, this is precisely the time to do it!

how much HP can the stock rods take? what is the weak point of the stock motor? i need to do a rebuild too :(

Stock 1.8 headgaskets are all metal, I have no idea how in the hell you blew a headgasket, there are some aftermarket options but they usually go for around $200+ and are either too thin or thick I think.

Most people say 300hp is where the rods start to go after some miles, and they are the first to break at high power, so I guess you can say that they're the weakest point.

rings and rods are supposedly the first things to go in the high 200 hp.

If you have reused your head bolts once, I would not reuse them a second time. That said, head studs are a big upgrade. They allow you to run more torque on the head, and that keeps that head gasket sandwiched even tighter.;)

When you install a bolt and torque the head, the bolt pulls up on the block, the threads pull down on the bolt. There is friction of course, but the main idea is that these two push/pull forces are equal. The more you tighten the bolt, the more the threads are "pulled up" and this distorts the surface of the block, as it pulls that area around the threads up. As this surface is pulled up, there is less pressure on the head gasket in this area, which can lead to a head gasket failure.

The threads the studs screw into are chamfered, then the stud is installed and torqued down. When it's torqued down, the stud is pushing the surface of the block "down" where it screws in. The stud pushes on the block, the block pushes on the stud. Then, you drop a head on there and tighten up the nuts to secure the head. Now the stud is pulling up on the block and pushing down on the block, and these forces cancel out. The deck surface is relatively flat now, rather than distorted upward.

You can use a stock head gasket they are good and you will be fine, just use head studs, make sure they are installed correctly, and torque everything using the correct lubes to the specified torques and you'll be fine.

the head studs dont run more torque I dont think. they do, however, allow you to be more consistent from bolt to bolt. and they also eliminate the torsional strain on the bolt. this means greater useable tensile strength. It works like the traction circle...

I still have some Rods for Sale :) I will still do $320 with shipping and insurance for the next few sets. PM me for details.

Hey guys, many thanks for the different suggestions! I left the car at the shop this morning and plan to go back this afternoon after work to check on things. I figure they'll have already done the compression and leakdown test by then. I'll post figures and decide then.

BTW, Mark I shot you a pm. Many thanks.

Since I already committed to buying the rods from Mark, I still need additional info on which rings to buy and why.

I also see that once I proceed with this project I really need to also buy and install the ARP studs.

I plan to also ask some stupid questions about some pistons that were previously discussed in Samnavy's thread.

Many thanks to all.

Rafa

Rafa, i wish i could guide you in your search for info on rings but i can't, it's a question i have been trying to find an answer to myself...i think i'll just take the word of someone who knows what they are doing on the rings and get whatever they say...

Pistons, i dont know about you, but i am starting to like the idea of taking my stock pistons out of my motor and have them cleaned and ceramic coated (top only)
you may want to consider this yourself...stock ones should be around 8.8:1 and that should be good enough based on my limited knowledge

ARP-get it! You dont have to worry about your stock ones anymore, it is not just marketing hype, im no metalurgist, but their repuation is what lead to them being the unanimous choice with almost every engine builder and permormance shops and stores, not their marketing...everyone endorses them pretty much for free cause they are that good

ps-you only need the head ones only since those are the ones that matter the most

Hey Dan, you bring up a couple of good points:

About the pistons; I can't consider that option (one of the problems of living overseas). I would've loved to be able to ceramic coat mines but it would mean about 3 weeks of downtime.

About the studs; if I decide to take the whole engine out I plan to balance the crank and hone the block. If I do so, would it be wise to keep my current bottom studs?

Thanks

I personally plan on replacing my main studs with a set of ARPs and I'd think it'd be wise to do so in your case just for peace of mind. Stronger and reliable can't hurt. :) And if you do take everything apart, don't forget about the main and crank bearings!

As far as pistons, maybe see if someone up here from the states can source you a set of OEM pistons and have them coated and then shipped to you so that you don't have to wait on yours to get done?

Rafa, i can't answer that since i really dont have any experience, i would assume so, but its not one of those things anyone ever talks about...if you got the money and like the peace of mind, do it, otherwise, don't...
Im sure there is someome in laRepublica that does cermaic coating...ask around...

i'll try to share some info i found on the subject

if you need me to do some leg work for you Rafa just let me know, i'll help you out...

Read this:
Pistons can also increase their performance characteristics with ceramic coatings. Coating the piston's crown and top will cause heat reflectivity, driving a percentage of any detonation energy back into the fuel burn zone, to increase fuel burn efficiency. It will also lower carbon buildup, which reduces detonation quality, as it builds up on the piston's crown and increases the risk of detonation damage to the piston crown surface. By protecting the crown and land diameter surfaces, it will allow for a leaner fuel mixture.

Piston skirts can be coated to create an excellent dry sliding surface during engine start-up and will help eliminate skirt slap during initial engine run-in. Using a dry coating will fight against scuffing and abrasion of the piston skirt during its stroke travel inside the engine block cylinder. The inside of the piston can also be coated with an oil-shedding coating to cut parasitic drag and return oil to the sump faster. Ceramic coatings can also be applied over the piston ring contact face of OEM hard chromium, which provides lowering friction between the ring face and cylinder inner bore surface scuffing, and also improves wear resistance.

Hey Dan, I appreciate the offer and will take you up on it :) (don't worry I'll try not to inconvenience you too much).

I got this from Samnavy's thread: "Originally Posted by Mach929
does anyone make hypereutectic pistons for the miata, from the reading i've done these would bridge the gap between stock cast pistons and fancy loose fitting forged ones."

Could someone provide additional info about these pistons please? Which option would you suggest; coating the pistons or the hypereutectic (wow, that was complicated! :o, I hate the fact that I hadn't even heard that word ever!) ones suggested by Mach929?

Thanks

On the next page of that thread, Ben points out that Mazda OEM pistons are hypereutectic.

lol; and I'm so brilliant that I took the quote from Ben's original reply to Mach929 post! :bang:

Hey Rotor, Manny's going back to Atlanta on the 10th. Any chance you may need something from here?

Thanks man

Haha!

Not that I'm aware of, although I'm not completely sure what things you might have where you are that may be of interest to me. Tell Manny that he is more than welcome to call me and I'll try to meet up with him again. Hopefully with more success than last time. lol

No problem Rafa, we'' make arrangements once you know exactly what you want/need so you don't waste any money on uneccasary stuff/shipping
ill do some research and find someone reputable, i might as well go ahead and get my pistons coated at the same time if you decide you want yours coated

I ran 380hp on a stock non-coated pistons. I like the stock pistons, and would highly recommend a good coated set :) Too bad I don't have any to use in my motor build.

looks like its about $100 for all 4 pistons, they do the samd blasting and use two different types of coats, heat reflecting on top, and oil shedding on skirts and bottom for lubrication purposes etc.
i talked to these people in WA state, Performance Coatings...seem legit, on top of Google search result, sound like they are top notch, maybe Kelly knows them...

ps-Marc, when im done with my house (2-3months) ill hit you up for some rods, i hope they'll still be at $320

Hey Dan that sounds like a great deal. Would you mind asking them what rings they recommend?

Many, many thanks

Rafa

Hey Eric, he'll be there from the 10th to the 15th this time; and, no, he won't need to try a turbo Miata this time :giggle: but I'm sure he'd like to meet up with you. He said he had a blast last time around. Many thanks.

The offer is still standing ;)

Regards,

Rafa

This is the kind of news I like to hear! BTW. check your paypal ;)

Many thanks,

Rafa

the guy is not a miata guru, he is into mazda trucks, but he did say that he does not like to coat rings fo some reason, they refuse to do rings and pins

we still need some insight on rings i guess, i wish i knew the answer

Thanks Dan. All I've read so far is that the rings and the rods are the first to go on Miata engines. I already solved the rods issue. I have to tackle the rings and pistons.

I'll see if I can find additional info on ring sizes and which to use. One other thing; do you know who sells original Mazda pistons? I figure I can buy them and have them sent to you once we find a company to coat them.

Regards,

Rafa

new ones are not expensive, but you really dont need them, buy used ones and save money...the guys that do the coating sandblast them first and the coat them, new or used, no reason to waste money on new ones