side by side radiator and intercooler setup
 

Well, I got lucky at the tear a part and found an 87 Shelby Z. I snagged the radiator/intercooler combo out of it and am thinking of running it in the new Miata. The radiator core is quite thick and would run both fans in a front and back, push and pull setup. The IC is good up to around 270whp according to a local turbo Dodge geek. I figure if I make an air scoop, the side by side setup would get plenty of airflow. And if the IC doesn't work well enough I will just keep the radiator and run a larger fmic with an around the radiator or v-mount setup. Here is a link to what the stock configuration looks like http://www.theturboforums.com/car_im...ntercooler.jpg
Another option would be the Probe turbo intercooler in place of the Shelby one.

If it works it would be a very clean setup, save dicking about with IC piping under the car and you could probably keep all of the original ducts and undertrays. I like :bigtu:

That's probably the most ideal setup I've ever seen. The inlet/outlet's are perfectly positioned for a Miata application. The IC is on the small side (how thick is it?) but should be fine for a low-boost application. A few datalogging sessions should give you a good idea on effieciency of IAT's. A cool-air-box behind the drivers headlight and a NACA duct would ensure you're starting with the coolest air you can.

I'm still way up in the air about the IC setup for my impending '99 build. A side-by-side setup isn't out of the question using a 3" Honda radiator and a CXracing 3" IC core.

I'm assembling a gallery of over-the-top setups and might go with one of those ala TrackDog at 1/5th the price.

Are there any other OEM side-by-side applications?

I think it'll work, but asking much more power from it might be beyond it's limit. There's only so much space up there, and even though you get the advantage of improved exposure to air flow you do run out of "real estate". You're only means after that comes in the form of thicker exchangers which also reach limits.

I'd say to be safe you should proabably start at whatever your wastegate pressure is... maybe 8psi and get some IAT's. The earlier Bell/FM IC's were not that much bigger, but they may have been better designed. This one will also be behind the AC condenser. Hot days may not be kind to IAT's.

The concept is awesome as long as it's got the flow capability/efficiency on hot days.

Im intrested to see how it fits also. I have a feeling the sway bar might interfere with the lower inlet on the IC.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

do it!

I'll try to have a mockup on my parts car and pics by end of the week.

And I would probably run a small turbo fan behind the IC.

the IC isn't that small, but it wouldn't hurt to improve airflow

This guy has a writeup on it:

http://diymiata.com/honda.htm

I'm going to do something similar by the end of the year when I redo my I/C setup. I already have a probe IC and the temp. delta at 8 psi is about 25 degrees over ambient. I suspect this is because my air filter is directly behind the radiator. So, the intercooler is not a bad one.

This guy went to the other extreme:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...RX+INTERCOOLER

I will start with the 10psi wastegate that's on there now.

:werd: nice tho

IIRC, he got a ebay honda rad + WRX stock IC on the cheap and did the fab work himself so not really bad if you can fab a little or have someone that can weld. Hard part is the time and effort spent in making it fit, the brackets, and welding.

Beautiful work too.

all right all right that was a brainfart. He did a great job I agree with that. But its too much work.

Isnt there some guy on M.net using a converted WRX intercooler and a honda radiator in the same exact configuration as above? He also has a dedicated fan on the intercooler.

uhhh Sam...that link is to the Mnet guy...

Whoops:( I missed that link, and the 3 or so posts discussing it.

Im gonna go back to work now.

Isn't that exactly the guy you're speaking of?

That thread really doesn't show the benefit in all that work... I think it'd take a real scientific approach to prove that there's any greater advantage over the traditional approach. There's a lot of things that aren't immediately obvious when first considering it the setup. Most are immediately blinded by the advantage of direct exposure to both exchangers (or only having them covered by the condenser). But then you've introduced the IC to engine bay (header/turbo) heat exposure that it didn't have before (and so on).

I am sticking with FMIC, it's easier, cheaper, and works...nough said!

Corky has a side-by-side radiator/IC combo sitting on a shelf in the lobby of BEGI. It looks about the right size for a Miata, though I do not know its history. It might be interesting to know the story behind it.

If you have a dedicated fan and/or heat shield behind the IC it would more than make up for any engine heat sources.

i really want to know now.

Except that the heat shield would then prevent the flow of air from the exchangers past the header/turbo. So now what? Compressor housing heat soak and elevated intake temps? Then that means the IC is getting hotter air and thus the probability of resulting temps similar to the fmic... negating the advantage.

This is what I'm speaking of- w/o testing everything, changing one thing and seeing a positive result means nothing if you've changed five other thing negatively but fail to realize it.

move IC to coldside of bay ;)

Or just V-Mount it... :p

Call them up and ask them. They are pretty friendly about that kind of thing.

OMG then you'll double the length of the hot side pipe ;)

oh, and mr. V - where did you say your condenser was? (and trash is not an option) :D

Grinder's Vmount has the condenser below the radiator. Lots of room to fit it. Or it could be level right in the middle of everything.

A/C is a must, that's why I sold my other Miata to buy one with A/C. Never missed it before I moved to Utah. The condensor can easily be moved around. I pretty much have everything for a nice V-mount setup if the side by side fails.

assuming this isnt a joke, doubling the length might be beneficial in terms of heat loss from the pipe.

I'm thinking about removing it in my car right now because it doesn't really work that well currently, and i think that if it were hot enough to need the AC, I'd rather drive something else.

here is the beginning of my side by side
 

The Radiator will be a Ron Davis triple core, the IC is a stock Mazda part......

^Ooooooohhhhh.... I see lotsa new parts (like motor)... and require lots more info on this setup. Don't forget to start a thread and post pics when this thing is complete.

yeah- it was a joke... if you're extending one, you're most likely shortening the other. But the shorter cold side pipe is probably the better option. I'm doing the same thing- but I'm running an oil cooler in that spot.

To add to that, the total piping length would be the same regardless of which side it's on. Whether it's the inlet or outlet piping that's longer, doesn't really make a difference.

Will do. Here are a few more mock up photos of the work in progress..

That's one hell of a shop you got there. The car doesn't look half bad either. What's your ETA for being done with it..well having it driveable?

shooting for two weeks from Saturday

:eek5::eek5::eek5: Please please start a build thread. Must have more pics and info.
__________________
Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

as said, start your own thread!!

that's arguable because I'd think that you have max. intercooler efficiency with a longer hotside (aka more heat loss) and a shorter coldside (aka less heat gain).

That's arguable as a longer hot side pipe on the hot side would have more exposure to engine bay heat for soak. Though a longer hot side pipe that left the engine bay asap would have less opportunity for heating up. My only point is that without numbers, or before/after any claims are speculation and merely for conjecture.

Pipefather is right on the money. Heat is "injected" at the compressor wheel. However the transit times at WOT are so short that the differences seen are minimal.

m2, didn't you read corky's comments, paragraph 5:

http://www.bellengineering.net/artic...2e56b781190aa5

But I do agree with your last statement somewhat, once I get my data acquisition system i expect to have some data on this.

This is speculation with out proof. Where are his numbers?

Absolutely. There is a lot of "fact" thrown around that has no testing done. Just because it SHOULD be better doesn't mean that it will.

You didnt really click the link I posted did you. Anybody who isnt blind can see the numbers quite plainly.

don't argue in my thread!! jk, kill each other at will!!!!

I read it. I must say I'm amazed that the underhood temps were only 112f on a 95f day. It just seems impossible considering my race car interior measured similarly at a July race at CMS in a showroom stock Miata- with both windows down. I actually had my shoe heel melt on the trans tunnel in the foot well with our NB race car. And then to think that the headers internal gases are running ~1350f pre turbine at cruise, and higher under boost. Is it not incredible that the header is really retaining that much heat?

I did when this same discussion came up in the spring.

I should have been more specific, where are his numbers for an insulated pipe (ala FM)? He states clearly that it is better, show me the numbers that prove it. Oh wait, it wasn't tested. Speculation and mud slinging.

Is it better? Probably? Does it matter when you have an I/C in the picture, most likely not.

holy shit. How did you attach that splitter?

ummmmm....do I see an F1 or CART something or other with Bennetton in the garage?
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/att...1&d=1218071180

Yep, that's a Bennetton F1 car...taking it out next week for testing

Thought I had posted a dimensional analysis arguement here about why the pipe length is of little consequence, but don't see it here.
In a nutshell the transit time of the intake air to quick to make any heat transfer from the small amount of tube surface inconsequential, other wise, why have an intercooler, just bend up a bunch of pipe! Just break the equation down into thermal conductivity of the air and pipe material, the surface area where transfer takes place, and after cancelling like terms etc, the equation simplifies to units of heat per unit time. Since the time is so short, and the surface area so small (relative to an Intercooler), the units of heat transferred turn out to be miniscule.

the side by side is up for sale.