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Old 03-29-2010, 12:11 AM   #41
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Yeah, Ive converted a few DSM's from pump gas to e85, the potential for a better burn and less knock is dramatically increased. I don't think you will need to upgrade lines or anything, just get a good pump, bigger injectors and a new-er fuel filter(appx. 30% more fuel is needed) as e85 is more corrosive and acts as a better cleaning agent which may dirty up the filter. You can get big injectors as long as you have the engine management to tune them...

Nomie
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Old 03-29-2010, 03:29 AM   #42
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sounds like fun 18psi, cant wait to see all the new updates....

shame about the other manifold, i'll check manifold thread to see what happened BUT if you dont need to take too much off it you can always brace it & the shave it which SHOULD then hold....



This is a log i made for my b2600 mazda 4x4 truck, the bracing works well to hold it all together
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Old 03-29-2010, 11:25 AM   #43
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Found an article a while back thinking about making the switch myself. If you're running MS2 you can use the GM Flex Fuel sensor which somehow knows what fuel is going through your lines.

Another fun thing I've learned was the 'myths' about running E85 in standard OEM tanks, lines, and intake manifolds are pretty much just that. There are local honda guys who've had E85 sitting inside a stock gas tank for a couple years with misc fuel system parts immersed in it with no ill effects.

To get 350hp from 4 injectors with forced induction you're looking about 600cc injectors on Gasoline. According to Injector Rehab you take that number and multiply it by 1.47.

600cc x 1.47 = 882cc

Maybe 1000cc injectors to be safe?

Just noticed you're actually running the Adaptronic so obviously that'll be something you'll need to research yourself about the fuel sensor. What I'd like to do is use the fuel sensor and map switching just in case no good fuel is available, I'd still have a tune which could be somewhat powerful.


This. Normal gas is 10% ethanol anyway, and fuel components are designed to resist oxidation if they are worth anything. The pnly time I see people having problems is if they have lines with Teflon liners, as Teflon will often not play so nicely with alcohol in general. When I was an engineering student and we were dumb *** freshman messing with an FSAE car we noticed that a fuel line made a funny crackling sound when flexed. The car ran on pure mthanol and the sound was the liner cracking due to being made brittle.

Long story short, just make sure you use proper lines rated for alcohol. OEMs are fine as long as they flow enough. My freind with a 91 TSI simply put some E85 in the tank with an SAFC and 550 injectors and a 2G MAS and the car works perfectly. It started right up after nearly a year sitting too. One thing that is true is that older parts will get a good cleaning from E85 as someone mentioned, and that means you should keep an eye on the filter for a few weeks after switching.

Injectors over about 1100CC do tend to have much longer dead times, and that can make idles a bit rough and hurt mileage. But usually 1150ish CC injectors do excellent and with proper management will run just fine daily.The 1600s you see around a bit trickier.

The really cool thing about E85, which most of the other benefits stem from, is that it burns so much cooler than gasoline. If you can, log your EGTs. You will be shocked. And its not only because of the fact that your actual AFRs are much richer, its just the nature of alcohol. When you pressurize it, then release it into a low pressure environment, then pressurize it and burn it, but just does not heat stuff up as much as gas. This is a big part of why you dont get knock on long pulls with it.
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Old 03-29-2010, 04:34 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
We have e85 on every other corner around here, so I'm not too concerned about switching back and forth between it and regular 91.
I've also read the thread where TravisR basically said the adaptronic can use the flex fuel sensor as well.

I guess 1000cc injectors should do then

Everyone I know running e85 locally is doing it on stock tank/lines. Just a big pump, a high flow rail, and big injectors
God you're lucky. I know of 3 stations here, and none are < 10 miles from my house.

The most impressive car I've seen around here on E85 (street, anyway) is this 92 MR2. He puts down something CRAZY like upper 5xxhp with it! (Think he even runs megasquirt too, but I could be mistaken.)
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:56 AM   #45
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Well im sorta on the same plan/goals as you so heres lil heads up. Ill pass what ive learned from one of the best tuners around and the one who tuned my car ( mike angel, factorx cricket nsx).

Any big daddy full ecu youll be fine with.

I have a flipside ramhorn 3076r with the smallest .63 housing to keep spool. I tuned on 100oct which was last minute as i didnt decide to go e85 yet. 17psi got me 357/288.

Now after that he put it like this. Go buy "id" brand injectors 2000cc. This will be room for anything ever future and the last inj ever to buy. The "id" brand is solid and he runs them fine even with lesser flow. Very common with huge injectors is they run like **** at low/idle range. The 30% more flow needed with e85 also is sendibg a **** ton more bang behind it when it hits the turbo. Quiker spool and more tq is a result winnar! He said on small 4cyl **** its like gaining another cylinder. Also e85 is closer to 114-116 oct ratinf as well. The corn **** also runs a ton cooler thus being safer of course. Said go swap inj and retune and do whatever you want. Mentioned that the car really starts to pickup alot after the 25 range on the 30r.

So from here ill be goin to the 2000 inj and retune on e85. Ill see if this motor holds 25psi for awhile and that should easily be 450 without pushing anything hard. Maybe a few drag runs higher then that to get a 10 slip since it was one of the original goals.

If i had to redo things id have jumped to a 35r and been done. Every thing ive seen is you loose nothing but gain a **** ton up top. My motor starts to fall off after 6800 or so but with 350 you cant feel it but a dyno shows it. Im accreditting the fall off to stockish head. Seriously though 350 is so narly its really all ya need. But that will also get old fairly quikly.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:52 AM   #46
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Good ****. NICE
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Old 04-01-2010, 07:31 PM   #47
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I switched from 750s to ID1000s and they are fantastic. Capable of a RELIABLE 90psi of fuel pressure (RC doesn't recommend anything over 70psi) and fully E85 compatible. A little pricey but they basically drop right in. They also have super low minimum times, so the idle is manageable.

I did the math at one point, RC750s would take me to 400whp on gas, but I needed 1000ccs and a little more base pressure to see 400whp on E85.

With the right supporting mods and a 3076 you should have no problems making 450whp at high boost on E85. Should be a fun little toy.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:11 AM   #48
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Savington, define "basically drop right in." Reason I ask is that I ordered the ID1000s from my local tuner. They were Honda injectors, with an adapter cap at the top which matched the Miata rail. Problem is that if I use the bottom Miata grommet the injector is too tall. The shop is getting me a thinner grommet at the suggestion of their supplier, which was someone in TX. I'm just wondering if you had to do anything to them to get them to fit? Also, where did you get them, if you don't mind disclosing? Last thing, keep us a little updated about tuning to E85, like target AFRs and such. Some of us are curious. I should be cooking corn at the end of the month in mine, I'll report my experiences, as well.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:50 AM   #49
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Now after that he put it like this. Go buy "id" brand injectors 2000cc. This will be room for anything ever future and the last inj ever to buy. The "id" brand is solid and he runs them fine even with lesser flow.
Do you have a link to them? I did not know there are any injectors at that rate that were even remotely streetable. 1600s from most makers are pushing it for idle quality as-is.
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Old 04-02-2010, 11:24 AM   #50
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Nothing off hand for a link just passing on info. I asked my boy about big inj not idling and he said he can get the 2k ones to idle like stock. All in the tuning. I doubt ill ever need that big of an injector so ill prolly get 1600 to be safe. Might wanna get crazy and slap a 35r in there sometime
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Old 04-02-2010, 11:59 AM   #51
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I don't need anything larger than 1000cc.

I HAVE heard lots of evo owners report that getting 1000's to idle properly is not that hard. Don't know if that can be said for miata's. Sav confirms this so Sounds like it does.

I'm going to shoot for 350whp first and see how I like it. Can't imagine that getting boring any time soon since the car is a handfull already and its ~250-260 right now.


My other question is about pump, rail, and lines. I do believe stock fuel lines can be retained and should work? (I mean are they large enough to flow a **** ton of the stuff?). Also what is a good fuel rail to get? M-tuned is the only one I know of readily available. Also for pump everyone and their mother taht I know uses Walbro. Will a single wally be enough or do I need to get a double pumper setup or possibly a tilton?
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:16 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
My other question is about pump, rail, and lines. I do believe stock fuel lines can be retained and should work? (I mean are they large enough to flow a **** ton of the stuff?). Also what is a good fuel rail to get? M-tuned is the only one I know of readily available. Also for pump everyone and their mother taht I know uses Walbro. Will a single wally be enough or do I need to get a double pumper setup or possibly a tilton?
The 5/16 hard lines should flow enough as is. I calculated delta p on them a while ago, gas and alky being such low viscosity helps a bunch with the flow.

I'm pretty sure there is a spot in the FAQ sticky for flow calculations, just add 30-40% for E85. When I calculated it, the Walbro 190 was marginal for a very conservative 300whp on E85. The 255 regular I got was a bit of overkill for 300 whp E85, I think it will be ok for 350 wheel. You are going to need a real regulator to deal with this flow, I got an AEM. Not sure how to deal with your system if it's going to stay returnless, you need to look into this.

Mtuned rail all the way. Not sure if FM has one for the NB, that may be an option too. Just a little hint, when I had the FM rail for my 1.6, it was straight threaded for the feeds on either end, and there was no oring land. I didn't like it. The mtuned rail is threaded NPT, which is the right way to go if you don't put ring lands on a straight thread, YMMV.

Start thinking about switching some of the fuel lines over to stuff that's alcohol tolerant. After much research, I found that non-teflon Aeroquip AQP hose with reusable fittings were rated tolerant to alky fuels. This hose is more reasonably priced than TFE hose, and it was available through my local Aeroquip dealer. I am using braided AQP for all the underhood fuel lines, and sourced the Earl's 5/16" tubing to AN transition to make a neat connection to the factory lines. If you can't find it, I can dig out a part number for you.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:19 PM   #53
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BTW, you WILL read about the Walbro documentation as saying it is not compatible with any alcohol fuel. Further, you will read about lots of guys using the Walbro anyway, as am I. Just be aware. I think the Bosch pumps are rated ok with alky, not sure what models if any fit up our in tank system. The Walbro 255 was a very easy fit in my '90, and I am very stupid and not very imaginative wrt fabrication.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:29 PM   #54
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Great. Thanx for the advice man.
So now the question of return vs non-retun system arises. Pretty sure I'll have to convert to a return style. Haven't heard of having to run an adjustible FPR but I'll look into it.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:32 PM   #55
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having to run an adjustible FPR
Noob, it's in the FAQ sticky

Take a look at that factory FPR. It is tiny. The theory is that the high flow pumps, ie anything over 190lph overwhelms it and causes the base pressure to creep, thereby causing particularly idle AFRs to be unstable. The real fpr is cheap insurance against this, although you will need to convert to a return style system to use one, I'm pretty sure.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:45 PM   #56
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I know its in the FAQ, and even remember reading it a long time ago. I have an NB and before now never even had the need to think about things like this since I was planning on running EMS without touching the pump or fpr..So I just disregarded that info lulz

guess I'll have to go back and re-read.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:22 PM   #57
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Noob, it's in the FAQ sticky

Take a look at that factory FPR. It is tiny. The theory is that the high flow pumps, ie anything over 190lph overwhelms it and causes the base pressure to creep, thereby causing particularly idle AFRs to be unstable. The real fpr is cheap insurance against this, although you will need to convert to a return style system to use one, I'm pretty sure.
Hey there noob, it's a bit different with the NB cars. Our base fuel pressure it quite a bit higher than the NA cars so we won't overwhelm the regulator running a larger pump. Some people have noticed a drop off in fuel pressure at higher boost levels and others seem to have no problem.

I would add a pressure gauge on whatever fuel rail you get and do some testing to see if what you have works before you upgrade.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:43 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by webby459 View Post
Savington, define "basically drop right in." Reason I ask is that I ordered the ID1000s from my local tuner. They were Honda injectors, with an adapter cap at the top which matched the Miata rail. Problem is that if I use the bottom Miata grommet the injector is too tall. The shop is getting me a thinner grommet at the suggestion of their supplier, which was someone in TX. I'm just wondering if you had to do anything to them to get them to fit? Also, where did you get them, if you don't mind disclosing? Last thing, keep us a little updated about tuning to E85, like target AFRs and such. Some of us are curious. I should be cooking corn at the end of the month in mine, I'll report my experiences, as well.
They have those little hard black spacers at the bottom, you have to basically break them off. With those on, they are too big to drop into the head and they'll never seal up anyway. Crack those off and they drop right in using stock seals and such. This is what T1 (the guys who make the ID injectors) told me to do - they said it's normally done in-house before they ship out a set for a Miata. (makes me wonder who they've shipped to.)

They may have different bases, I believe the ones I bought (I bought them BNIB) were for a DSM.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:46 PM   #59
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Everything I've read about the ID injectors say that they are unlike anything else out there. You can't take a normal 1600cc injector and go do that. Apparently the 1000s I have idle like a 600, minimum times of like .9ms.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:46 PM   #60
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Hey there noob, it's a bit different with the NB cars. Our base fuel pressure it quite a bit higher than the NA cars so we won't overwhelm the regulator running a larger pump. Some people have noticed a drop off in fuel pressure at higher boost levels and others seem to have no problem.

I would add a pressure gauge on whatever fuel rail you get and do some testing to see if what you have works before you upgrade.
So I don't need a stronger FPR?

Just a drop in Wally and some 1000's?
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