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-   -   turbo vs built motor questions. (https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo-discussion-14/turbo-vs-built-motor-questions-68995/)

Dange 10-17-2012 11:43 PM

turbo vs built motor questions.
 
So I have a MSM that is fully bolted 226whp 235tq, with the hydra and ID1000's. but ive pretty much ran out of steam. the 2.5 exhaust i have on it wont let me advance anymore timing without knock. at least from what jeremy @FM is seeing in the logs when he tuned it. but purchasing an full exhaust is a wee bit more than i like seeing it comes with the whole shebang when i order through abe., and will net me maybe 10hp max.

My problem is i can only afford one direction at a time for now.. (dont you just love when the cheap parts are done and the only steps left cost big money)
I want the efr6258 as the turbo. but supposedly with all artech stuff. will blow the motor at lowest possible boost levels.
the other route is to order the trackspeed built engine. i wont have to worry about blowing the engine but then again wont make any more hp than i am now. even with a 4k+ drop in my bank account.

if i got the route of the GTX2867r. and the MVR ewg. its 500 more. but i know i can hit the boost i want even if it is only 7psi.. hit 250whp and be safe with plenty of room to grow upwards. and arguably would look better (inner ricer coming out a bit)

now another option i have heard. is to just straightpipe the miata for now. go get it tuned on e-85, and keep saving (i was also told to run e-85 im going to need something like FM's bigfuel kit because e85 will clog(or eat) the paper filter on the fuelpump)

Edit: Btw this car doesnt see track use often. its a DD that i take out and play on weekends and once and a while get a little froggy and jump on the loud pedal. in the last 6 months its seen one roadtrip a mini autocross that i never got out of second, and one trackday. on a shifterkart track

Fireindc 10-18-2012 12:46 AM

Many people run e85 on the stock fuel system. Replace the filter regularly and you should be good.

What kind of EMS are you running? My advise would be to get an exhaust first, because you need a 3" no matter what if you want more power. Then upgrade the turbo setup on your stock motor on low boost, then built motor. If you are doing it in steps that sounds like what i'd do.

Also CO springs! badass, do you know matthewsdesigns?

hustler 10-18-2012 12:47 AM

I know someone with a built engine in his garage he'd like to unload...

Dange 10-18-2012 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireindc (Post 940546)
Many people run e85 on the stock fuel system. Replace the filter regularly and you should be good.

What kind of EMS are you running? My advise would be to get an exhaust first, because you need a 3" no matter what if you want more power. Then upgrade the turbo setup on your stock motor on low boost, then built motor. If you are doing it in steps that sounds like what i'd do.

Also CO springs! badass, do you know matthewsdesigns?

I am running Hydra 2.7

the exhaust I was going to order from abe at the same time as the turbo manifold/downpipe because he offers sort of a package deal.

the problem with upgrading my turbo setup is if i go with the BW efr6258 and abe's ramhorn. . the massive torque it makes in low rpms does not agree with the stock rods. granted the only other car ive seen on this setup it could have been the tune, and blew on a trackday so it was being pushed harder than my car will see for a while.

and I dont think i do. I only saw one other boosted miata the whole time i lived there. (just moved down to tucson) was a blue NA, and i only managed to say hi to him

and hustler im guessing it is you? why are you selling?

Fireindc 10-18-2012 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dange (Post 940558)
and I dont think i do. I only saw one other boosted miata the whole time i lived there. (just moved down to tucson) was a blue NA, and i only managed to say hi to him

and hustler im guessing it is you? why are you selling?

That's him i'd bet. Same color as my car, it's quick too.

concealer404 10-18-2012 11:39 AM

If those numbers were put down on FM's dyno... i'd suggest slapping it on another dyno and see what you get. My guess is that at that point, you'll probably go with the turbo kit first. I bet you've got a bit more than 24whp to go before you hit a real 250whp.

Fireindc 10-18-2012 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concealer404 (Post 940675)
If those numbers were put down on FM's dyno... i'd suggest slapping it on another dyno and see what you get. My guess is that at that point, you'll probably go with the turbo kit first. I bet you've got a bit more than 24whp to go before you hit a real 250whp.

THIS. especially if that dyno is altitude corrected. My new build is going to shoot for 250whp AT 7200 ft. This means if i take the car down to sea level, id almost certainly be pushing closer to 280+whp if i kept everything the same.. but of course you can turn down the boost if you go lower in altitude.

id assume the stock MSM turbo setup wouldn't make much over 200whp at 7k feet since its running out of breath up there (if you are in co springs, you've gotta be close to my altitude).

concealer404 10-18-2012 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireindc (Post 940683)
THIS. especially if that dyno is altitude corrected. My new build is going to shoot for 250whp AT 7200 ft. This means if i take the car down to sea level, id almost certainly be pushing closer to 280+whp if i kept everything the same.. but of course you can turn down the boost if you go lower in altitude.

id assume the stock MSM turbo setup wouldn't make much over 200whp at 7k feet since its running out of breath up there (if you are in co springs, you've gotta be close to my altitude).

My car made 245whp on FM's dyno.

I HIGHLY doubt it makes anything more than 200whp on any other dyno in the country.

Dange 10-18-2012 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by concealer404 (Post 940684)
My car made 245whp on FM's dyno.

I HIGHLY doubt it makes anything more than 200whp on any other dyno in the country.

I agree, we have a dynoday coming soon. and ill slap it on there.
but im pretty sure it will be close. the thing im thinking is i made 220whp 210wtq on a local dyno BEFORE the hydra/injectors and tuning. just with bandaids and well 30% mix of racegas lol. after the hydra i only gained 6whp but the timing control allowed me to push an additional 25tq. I understand different dynos provide different numbers. I just dont see why with more boost/more timing i would be hitting any less hp.. but i could be wrong. im just wondering if maybe FM fixed their correction factors.

soviet 10-18-2012 02:21 PM

post before/after timing maps?

i don't get how you gain 25tq and only 6whp. last time I gained 39tq and 82whp...

concealer404 10-18-2012 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dange (Post 940753)
I agree, we have a dynoday coming soon. and ill slap it on there.
but im pretty sure it will be close. the thing im thinking is i made 220whp 210wtq on a local dyno BEFORE the hydra/injectors and tuning. just with bandaids and well 30% mix of racegas lol. after the hydra i only gained 6whp but the timing control allowed me to push an additional 25tq. I understand different dynos provide different numbers. I just dont see why with more boost/more timing i would be hitting any less hp.. but i could be wrong. im just wondering if maybe FM fixed their correction factors.

Doubtful. I'm on an upgraded turbo, so i'd expect to dyno a little higher than you on their dyno.

bbundy 10-18-2012 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireindc (Post 940683)
THIS. especially if that dyno is altitude corrected. My new build is going to shoot for 250whp AT 7200 ft. This means if i take the car down to sea level, id almost certainly be pushing closer to 280+whp if i kept everything the same.. but of course you can turn down the boost if you go lower in altitude.

id assume the stock MSM turbo setup wouldn't make much over 200whp at 7k feet since its running out of breath up there (if you are in co springs, you've gotta be close to my altitude).

Altitude corrections are wacky and there isnt a good solution.

My car made 397 HP on FM's dyno. tested the following week at sea level on a Dyno Dynamics Dyno it made 367 but had a gob more midrange torque and boost response 310 ft-lbs at 4200 RPM.

Bob

Dange 10-18-2012 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soviet (Post 940755)
post before/after timing maps?

i don't get how you gain 25tq and only 6whp. last time I gained 39tq and 82whp...

well before timing maps dont exist... before was stock ecu, with 330cc injectors, fm O2 mod, and 3 gallons of VP ms109 added to 7 gallons of 91 pump.

and im guessing the torque gain is a combination of a few things from proper fueling/timing. the stock ecu on these msm's are retarded. adding in the hydra i no longer had that leanspot/dip in power when the ecu switched loops. that coincided right when i should be making peak tq.
that and unlike you and your BW my turbo is retarded I probably would have gained more hp up top but the stock turbo was petering out. going from 11 to 12 psi wasnt anything to write home about and we tried to push it to 13psi but made absolutely NO difference in power. and i am dropping to around 10psi at redline. peak hp is hitting at 5500rpm and dropping after that as the boost falls off. peak hp is at 4400 where i still have full boost. if not a bit of spike.

concealer.
are you a bouch/deadbolt upgrade? im sure you are making more than me. especially if you are running more boost. but if you are running the same boost. if im not completely confused we should be making basically the same power up untill my non modded turbo starts dropping psi and yours doesnt.
and i have to wonder if fm screwed up your tune. i remember you saying you hate how your car doesn't drive very smooth. it surges and pulls timing/advances on a whim.
whereas I really have no complaints about the drivability of mine. it is significantly smoother than the stock ecu ever was. i dont think i could be happier with the way mine drives. other than wishing it had more power.
hell the only problem i have ever noticed is once in a blue moon i have a slight idle fluctuation when i come to a stop and the ac is running that goes away if i blip the throttle. and that is due to the idle anticipation values that we have set a wee bit higher than normal seeing as once i build ill be running a light flywheel.

and i completely agree. about altitude corrections and differential in dynos. im not arguing that point. the dyno at fm was JUST to get my tune dialed in. and to say HEY look what i did. I wont know my gains untill i make it back to UMS and put it on the same dyno as i ran before the hydra. and even then it wont be accurate since previous dyno was in the middle of summer. and its now approaching winter. TBH I really dont care about dyno numbers im just using it as a reference to make sure i stay safe for my rods. and try to gauge where my money has gone. .

miata2fast 10-18-2012 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dange (Post 940558)
and hustler im guessing it is you? why are you selling?

Just in case the parties concerned have not noticed this last statement. ;)

concealer404 10-18-2012 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dange (Post 940780)
concealer.
are you a bouch/deadbolt upgrade? im sure you are making more than me. especially if you are running more boost. but if you are running the same boost. if im not completely confused we should be making basically the same power up untill my non modded turbo starts dropping psi and yours doesnt.
and i have to wonder if fm screwed up your tune. i remember you saying you hate how your car doesn't drive very smooth. it surges and pulls timing/advances on a whim.
whereas I really have no complaints about the drivability of mine. it is significantly smoother than the stock ecu ever was. i dont think i could be happier with the way mine drives. other than wishing it had more power.
hell the only problem i have ever noticed is once in a blue moon i have a slight idle fluctuation when i come to a stop and the ac is running that goes away if i blip the throttle. and that is due to the idle anticipation values that we have set a wee bit higher than normal seeing as once i build ill be running a light flywheel.

and i completely agree. about altitude corrections and differential in dynos. im not arguing that point. the dyno at fm was JUST to get my tune dialed in. and to say HEY look what i did. I wont know my gains untill i make it back to UMS and put it on the same dyno as i ran before the hydra. and even then it wont be accurate since previous dyno was in the middle of summer. and its now approaching winter. TBH I really dont care about dyno numbers im just using it as a reference to make sure i stay safe for my rods. and try to gauge where my money has gone. .


Yeah, i'm on a Blouch upgrade. I get no boost falloff anywhere, my numbers were made @ 13-14psi on their dyno.

hustler 10-18-2012 04:56 PM

I'm selling the turbo stuff and went NA because I'm homosexual and can no longer live the lie.

Fireindc 10-18-2012 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dange (Post 940753)
I agree, we have a dynoday coming soon. and ill slap it on there.
but im pretty sure it will be close. the thing im thinking is i made 220whp 210wtq on a local dyno

If it was a local dyno at 6k+ feet i bet those numbers were still corrected. My point here is if you look at the UNCORRECTED numbers, you probably still have a good 50whp to go before you reach the stock blocks "safe" limits.

concealer404 10-18-2012 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fireindc (Post 940823)
If it was a local dyno at 6k+ feet i bet those numbers were still corrected. My point here is if you look at the UNCORRECTED numbers, you probably still have a good 50whp to go before you reach the stock blocks "safe" limits.

This.

I'm even saying he could probably push a good 50whp corrected, let alone uncorrected.

Dange 10-18-2012 05:27 PM

now I was under the impression we are safe untill 250 wheel TORQUE not hp seeing as tq is what breaks things. meaning i could potentially push 260+whp as long as im only hitting about 230-240tq.
and i know what also breaks things is tq at XX rpm. and seeing as the BW spools so fast and it's hitting ungodly tq at such low RPM like soviet did that is where i have to worry.

So the breaking limit is 250 UNCORRECTED?
my numbers were corrected so. I can have jeremy shoot me the uncorrected numbers. hell its 130 ill go ahead and call FM now and have him at least read it to me.

concealer404 10-18-2012 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dange (Post 940836)
now I was under the impression we are safe untill 250 wheel TORQUE not hp seeing as tq is what breaks things. meaning i could potentially push 260+whp as long as im only hitting about 230-240tq.

So the breaking limit is 250 UNCORRECTED?
my numbers were corrected so. I can have jeremy shoot me the uncorrected numbers. hell its 130 ill go ahead and call FM now and have him at least read it to me.

Right... it's torque. But you'll need to move to a bigger turbo to hit those numbers either way, which means you'll get a HP bump to get to the same torque numbers, likely. :)


And yes... uncorrected. Corrected numbers aren't real. They're merely saying "This is what you would make if you were at sea level."


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