turbo vs built motor questions.
 

So I have a MSM that is fully bolted 226whp 235tq, with the hydra and ID1000's. but ive pretty much ran out of steam. the 2.5 exhaust i have on it wont let me advance anymore timing without knock. at least from what jeremy @FM is seeing in the logs when he tuned it. but purchasing an full exhaust is a wee bit more than i like seeing it comes with the whole shebang when i order through abe., and will net me maybe 10hp max.

My problem is i can only afford one direction at a time for now.. (dont you just love when the cheap parts are done and the only steps left cost big money)
I want the efr6258 as the turbo. but supposedly with all artech stuff. will blow the motor at lowest possible boost levels.
the other route is to order the trackspeed built engine. i wont have to worry about blowing the engine but then again wont make any more hp than i am now. even with a 4k+ drop in my bank account.

if i got the route of the GTX2867r. and the MVR ewg. its 500 more. but i know i can hit the boost i want even if it is only 7psi.. hit 250whp and be safe with plenty of room to grow upwards. and arguably would look better (inner ricer coming out a bit)

now another option i have heard. is to just straightpipe the miata for now. go get it tuned on e-85, and keep saving (i was also told to run e-85 im going to need something like FM's bigfuel kit because e85 will clog(or eat) the paper filter on the fuelpump)

Edit: Btw this car doesnt see track use often. its a DD that i take out and play on weekends and once and a while get a little froggy and jump on the loud pedal. in the last 6 months its seen one roadtrip a mini autocross that i never got out of second, and one trackday. on a shifterkart track

Many people run e85 on the stock fuel system. Replace the filter regularly and you should be good.

What kind of EMS are you running? My advise would be to get an exhaust first, because you need a 3" no matter what if you want more power. Then upgrade the turbo setup on your stock motor on low boost, then built motor. If you are doing it in steps that sounds like what i'd do.

Also CO springs! badass, do you know matthewsdesigns?

I know someone with a built engine in his garage he'd like to unload...

I am running Hydra 2.7

the exhaust I was going to order from abe at the same time as the turbo manifold/downpipe because he offers sort of a package deal.

the problem with upgrading my turbo setup is if i go with the BW efr6258 and abe's ramhorn. . the massive torque it makes in low rpms does not agree with the stock rods. granted the only other car ive seen on this setup it could have been the tune, and blew on a trackday so it was being pushed harder than my car will see for a while.

and I dont think i do. I only saw one other boosted miata the whole time i lived there. (just moved down to tucson) was a blue NA, and i only managed to say hi to him

and hustler im guessing it is you? why are you selling?

That's him i'd bet. Same color as my car, it's quick too.

If those numbers were put down on FM's dyno... i'd suggest slapping it on another dyno and see what you get. My guess is that at that point, you'll probably go with the turbo kit first. I bet you've got a bit more than 24whp to go before you hit a real 250whp.

THIS. especially if that dyno is altitude corrected. My new build is going to shoot for 250whp AT 7200 ft. This means if i take the car down to sea level, id almost certainly be pushing closer to 280+whp if i kept everything the same.. but of course you can turn down the boost if you go lower in altitude.

id assume the stock MSM turbo setup wouldn't make much over 200whp at 7k feet since its running out of breath up there (if you are in co springs, you've gotta be close to my altitude).

My car made 245whp on FM's dyno.

I HIGHLY doubt it makes anything more than 200whp on any other dyno in the country.

I agree, we have a dynoday coming soon. and ill slap it on there.
but im pretty sure it will be close. the thing im thinking is i made 220whp 210wtq on a local dyno BEFORE the hydra/injectors and tuning. just with bandaids and well 30% mix of racegas lol. after the hydra i only gained 6whp but the timing control allowed me to push an additional 25tq. I understand different dynos provide different numbers. I just dont see why with more boost/more timing i would be hitting any less hp.. but i could be wrong. im just wondering if maybe FM fixed their correction factors.

post before/after timing maps?

i don't get how you gain 25tq and only 6whp. last time I gained 39tq and 82whp...

Doubtful. I'm on an upgraded turbo, so i'd expect to dyno a little higher than you on their dyno.

Altitude corrections are wacky and there isnt a good solution.

My car made 397 HP on FM's dyno. tested the following week at sea level on a Dyno Dynamics Dyno it made 367 but had a gob more midrange torque and boost response 310 ft-lbs at 4200 RPM.

Bob

well before timing maps dont exist... before was stock ecu, with 330cc injectors, fm O2 mod, and 3 gallons of VP ms109 added to 7 gallons of 91 pump.

and im guessing the torque gain is a combination of a few things from proper fueling/timing. the stock ecu on these msm's are retarded. adding in the hydra i no longer had that leanspot/dip in power when the ecu switched loops. that coincided right when i should be making peak tq.
that and unlike you and your BW my turbo is retarded I probably would have gained more hp up top but the stock turbo was petering out. going from 11 to 12 psi wasnt anything to write home about and we tried to push it to 13psi but made absolutely NO difference in power. and i am dropping to around 10psi at redline. peak hp is hitting at 5500rpm and dropping after that as the boost falls off. peak hp is at 4400 where i still have full boost. if not a bit of spike.

concealer.
are you a bouch/deadbolt upgrade? im sure you are making more than me. especially if you are running more boost. but if you are running the same boost. if im not completely confused we should be making basically the same power up untill my non modded turbo starts dropping psi and yours doesnt.
and i have to wonder if fm screwed up your tune. i remember you saying you hate how your car doesn't drive very smooth. it surges and pulls timing/advances on a whim.
whereas I really have no complaints about the drivability of mine. it is significantly smoother than the stock ecu ever was. i dont think i could be happier with the way mine drives. other than wishing it had more power.
hell the only problem i have ever noticed is once in a blue moon i have a slight idle fluctuation when i come to a stop and the ac is running that goes away if i blip the throttle. and that is due to the idle anticipation values that we have set a wee bit higher than normal seeing as once i build ill be running a light flywheel.

and i completely agree. about altitude corrections and differential in dynos. im not arguing that point. the dyno at fm was JUST to get my tune dialed in. and to say HEY look what i did. I wont know my gains untill i make it back to UMS and put it on the same dyno as i ran before the hydra. and even then it wont be accurate since previous dyno was in the middle of summer. and its now approaching winter. TBH I really dont care about dyno numbers im just using it as a reference to make sure i stay safe for my rods. and try to gauge where my money has gone. .

Just in case the parties concerned have not noticed this last statement. ;)

Yeah, i'm on a Blouch upgrade. I get no boost falloff anywhere, my numbers were made @ 13-14psi on their dyno.

I'm selling the turbo stuff and went NA because I'm homosexual and can no longer live the lie.

If it was a local dyno at 6k+ feet i bet those numbers were still corrected. My point here is if you look at the UNCORRECTED numbers, you probably still have a good 50whp to go before you reach the stock blocks "safe" limits.

This.

I'm even saying he could probably push a good 50whp corrected, let alone uncorrected.

now I was under the impression we are safe untill 250 wheel TORQUE not hp seeing as tq is what breaks things. meaning i could potentially push 260+whp as long as im only hitting about 230-240tq.
and i know what also breaks things is tq at XX rpm. and seeing as the BW spools so fast and it's hitting ungodly tq at such low RPM like soviet did that is where i have to worry.

So the breaking limit is 250 UNCORRECTED?
my numbers were corrected so. I can have jeremy shoot me the uncorrected numbers. hell its 130 ill go ahead and call FM now and have him at least read it to me.

Right... it's torque. But you'll need to move to a bigger turbo to hit those numbers either way, which means you'll get a HP bump to get to the same torque numbers, likely. :)


And yes... uncorrected. Corrected numbers aren't real. They're merely saying "This is what you would make if you were at sea level."

oh ok. i knew corrected was a educated guess as to what you would make at sealevel.

but i figured because if x boost makes 250 at sealevel you are still pushing the engine just as hard even if you are only making 180 at altitude. if that makes any sense.

basically to hit 250 you have to push much harder than what the engine is able to handle to reach the 250. and the boost required and pressures within the cyl could bend/break the rod. since that amount of boost/fuel would be making say 270 at sealevel.

or am i thinking too black and white.

Too black and white. Power is power.

As mentioned above, uncorrected. Corrected numbers are to help you sleep at night. "Uncorrected" is what you really made. At 6k ft a "corrected" 250whp car would make low 200whp numbers.

Agreed. Use virtual dyno, it doesn't care what altitude you are and doesn't try to add corrections or anything. Give that a shot, OP.

just got my email back from FM. so it appears from what i just found out... i have 70hp and 60tq more wiggle room. not 30/20 like i previously thought

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1350601639

I love being at sea level.

I bet that car at sea level might, MIGHT, make 200whp.

Why don't you run EBC? oh wait, hydra EBC is broken, I forgot.
I also think FM spark and fuel kits are both retarded. I would spend money elsewhere....

Save your pennies for built engine/good turbo and don't overpay for tuning.

Spool seems late for a turbo that small, too... I made peak torque at 3800rpm i think...

Yeah it spools the SAME as a gt3071r in the FM2r kit.
when i sell the stock turbo/manifold/downpipe/exhaust it will make some NA miata guy plenty happy. but I need more.

and I am running a EBC. i have an HKS EVC6 still didn't help the tiny stock ihi hold boost to redline.

So. I am still kind of unsure. id like the BW efr. but even stock boost levels seem to even uncorrected put be above the 250 limit i know that by 5500 soviet was at 12psi on wastegate pressure. and when he went to 7k he was creeping to 17psi. which im pretty sure would install a new vent hole in the side of my block.

meanwhile the EFR2867 or regular gt3071 will still hit my eventual 400hp goal once the engine is built so I wont have to change turbos. yet with the tial MVR I shouldn't have any issues with creep and hit the boost that i set it to. and not surpass the safety limits

Unless im missing something would you all suggest the Garret?
or even get a churbo and then upgrade to the BW and ramhorn manifold down the line?

whoa whoa whoa now
there are 3 wastegates for EFRs - low, mid and high boost level
normally they all ship with mid-boost wastegate. with 6258 I ran a mid-boost and then switched to high-boost wastegate. now I exclusively run the high-boost wastegate.

with the low boost wastegate you will have no issue with boost control. the issue is that its way, way, way too easy to make a fuckton power with EFR. If you can honestly promise yourself to keep boost below certain psi, you should be good. EFR wastegates are really, really good.

http://www.full-race.com/articles/efrturbotechbrief.pdf
start from page 29

OOOOOH some reason i thought that you had a low boost
i went to https://www.treadstoneperformance.co...w+Boost+179282
and saw this image and thought you were running a low boost actuator.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1350919189

No, I run a high boost wastegate. Medium boost would probably work too for my 25psi